Hi guys,
This is pretty weird to me. So I have the following codes showing up: P0172, P0175, P0420
This tells me that the engine is running too rich. Either not enough air is getting through, or too much fuel being dumped. So first thing I'm trying to confirm is that the STFT & LTFT readings should be somewhere in the negatives.
Instead what I find is that they continue to hover around 0.50-0.90 for both, for both banks, at different RPMs. This can't be right, right? Also, LAMBDA hovers around 1.
Also, when I'm looking at different sensor readings (MAF, MAP, etc..), I have no clue what I'm comparing them too. Is there a spec sheet that the manufacturer (Honda in my case) releases that would tell me what each sensor is suppose to read? Can't seem to find this anywhere online.
I'm trying to learn as I work on the car, so please bare with me
Thanks again guys!
Please provide the mileage, year, and model of your vehicle. That's very important...
STFT and LTFT should be between -10% to 10% where 0% is perfect (and desired). Positive fuel trims mean that fuel is being added to compensate for a lean mixture, and negative fuel trims mean that fuel is being subtracted to compensate for a rich mixture. STFT are the instantaneous changes to the mixture while LTFT are the changes being made longterm (how the engine is running overall).
Lambda is the air-fuel mixture reading. So when lambda = 1, the air-fuel mixture is at a proper 14.7:1 (stoichiometric mixture of 14.7 parts of air per 1 part of fuel). Then lambda <1 is rich and lambda >1 is lean.
I'm not sure where you got that 0.50-0.90 for fuel trims. Fuel trims are given as percents and O2 sensor data is given in volts so 1V means a perfect mixture (this is never a steady 1V, it should be hovering close to 1). When providing data, please state what it is and give the units as well (V, psi, lb/min, etc.)
That last code P0420 is for an inefficient catalyst, which is why I ask for mileage.
Hey,
That was clearly my bad.
My vehicle is Honda Accord, 2012, V6, manual
Milage: 1028856 miles
STFT and LTFTs are in percentages. I can't explain why they are hovering near 0%
I am getting this information from the OBD2 scanner.
@arizvi
You want the STFTs and LTFTs to be around 0%. I mentioned in my answer that they should be as close to 0% as possible. 0% means the engine is burning a perfect stoichiometric mixture of 14.7 parts of oxygen per 1 part fuel. Were you trying to say the fuel trims were around 0.5-0.9%? That's pretty good if you're referring to fuel trims. I'm not sure why you are getting rich codes for proper fuel trims...unless these fuel trims are at idle and not while accelerating.
And am I reading the mileage correctly at 1,028,856 miles?
Hey,
Again my bad on the milage confusion. It's 165,784 km, which is around 103,013 miles.
That's what's really confusing me. The STFT and LTFT look right, even at different RPMs, then why would I get the rich code.
What are all the factors STFT and LTFT takes into account to determine it's value? Wondering if it's a leaky fuel injector, not sure if this could be possible.
@arizvi
The MAF sensor and O2 sensors determine the STFTs and LTFTs. If you were to have leaky fuel injectors, the O2 sensors would detect the extra fuel and subtract it...resulting in negative fuel trims. If the ECU is reporting good STFTs and LTFTs, then it shouldn't throw a rich code in the first place. When did you get those rich codes? Did the engine light turn on while driving or while idling? Did you clear the codes to see if they come back? Is it possible for you to list out live data while driving and at idle?
Good morning,
Initially I had LTFTs hovering around 12% and was getting rich codes. This was again weird. I took out the engine air filter, cleaned it up. Then cleared the codes.
After driving for a few dozen miles the engine light came back on (while I was driving).
This is where I'm at, at the moment. Looking at the data again, it doesn't make sense.
I've always captured the date while at idle, and at different RPMs. I can try capturing it while I drive around
I wish there was a way to create a table here, here is some live data. I think this is during the car's "close loop" cycle, because I started recording well after the car was warm, and after driving it around for ~10 mins.
Here is some live data you can look at. It seems the AF sensor is going crazy
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13zACG5pZpoAf9_ilovo1B1amIieFNoBL/view?usp=sharing
Look at the freeze frame data from when the codes were thrown.
See what the sensors were reporting at that time.
It will tell you if this happened at idle or higher rpms. What the engine temp was. What the fuel trims were doing. Your intake air temperature. Throttle position. What your O2 sensors were reporting.
If it's an intermittent problem your live data won't show it.
As far as MAF, a "loose" rule of thumb on a MAF's air flow rate at idle is 1 gram per second per liter of engine displacement.
So if you have a 2.0 Liter engine, you'd expect your MAF to read around 2g/s at idle (plus or minus a little is fine)
Some obd2 scanners will report MAF in Lbs/s so don't be fooled.
Hey,
Thanks for the reply.
I had a look at the freeze frame data, and there's a lot of information I don't understand. And I don't have any kind of spec sheet to compare it to.
My MAF is at 1.27v with 5.55 g/s
Since I have a v6, so does it look like it's within threshold?
It could be normal depending upon the engine rpms when the code was thrown as MAF will be relative to engine rpms. For your 3.5 L Accord the MAF should read around 3 to 4 g/s at idle.
It will increase as rpms increase because the MAF measures air intake into the throttle body. in the case of reading your freeze frame data you want to reconcile MAF to RPMs at the time.
Your MAF voltage and airflow doesn't appear that the code was thrown during idle, or I should say that the MAF value is too high for idle.
Having both P0172 and P0175 codes means that the the lean condition existed on both cylinder head banks when the code was thrown.
So I'd rule out intake manifold gaskets leaking because having both intake manifold gaskets fail on both banks at the same time is unlikely to say the least.
Since you aren't complaining about any other driveability issues that seems to point to either a vacuum leak or the MAF reporting more airflow than is actually occurring.
If you had fuel pressure problems you'd be complaining about your Accord running poorly.
So either the Mass Air Flow Sensor is telling the computer that much more air is entering the engine than actually is, or you have a vacuum leak where air is sneaking into the intake manifold downstream of the MAF sensor.
Either way, based on the "dubiously inflated reporting" of the amount of air entering the engine from the MAF sensor, or a vacuum leak, , the engine computer or PCM is spraying more fuel into the combustion chambers.
Meanwhile, the upstream oxygen sensors are telling the computer that the engine is running too rich and that less fuel is needed. The computer tries to compensate, but since the MAF is saying one thing and the upstream O2 sensor is saying another, resolution is impossible, it sets the code
Your P0420 code will resolve itself when you correct this condition.
Bottom line, I'd spray some brake cleaner or carb cleaner around vacuum lines and connections to find any leaks if they exist. (Idle will increase if you spray a vacuum leak.)
if you don't find any, replace the MAF sensor
Good morning,
Thanks a bunch for taking your time to reply.
For your comment: "Having both P0172 and P0175 codes means that the the lean condition existed on both cylinder head banks when the code was thrown."
Sorry, lean? I thought these are rich codes. Meaning the air fuel ratio is off and there's too much fuel in your engine. Or not enough air.
Regarding your comment: "If you had fuel pressure problems you'd be complaining about your Accord running poorly."
I got this vehicle with these codes. And this being my first V6, I really don't know how "powerful" it should be.
After reading your comment a few times, correct me if I misunderstood.
You're saying MAF is reporting more air than its actually pulling. So the ratio is off. In this case a lean code should be thrown. Instead it's throwing a rich codes because o2 sensor is detecting not enough air (which could be correct) because of a vacuum leak (or bad MAF), thus too much fuel so rich code is thrown?
This is confusing lol
Yeah, I owe you an apology. I re-read that last post after I posted it and I thought, I'm going to confuse the hell out of this guy. I tried to edit it, but the time to edit it had expired.
It isn't you, it's me.
I'll try again.
It appears the MAF sensor is over-reporting the amount of air being sucked into the intake.
So the computer, using that "inflated" reading, is adding what it thinks is the appropriate amount of fuel to maintain a 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio.
Meanwhile, both upstream O2 sensors are correctly reading the mixture as too rich at the exhaust and they're telling the computer to lean the fuel mixture. (negative fuel trims)
So you (rightly) expected to see negative fuel trims in your freeze frame data from when the codes were thrown.
So, it's not a vacuum leak because the MAF sensor wouldn't be reporting those to the computer and the upstream O2 sensors would be reading a lean mixture, not a rich mixture.
It's not a fuel delivery issue (fuel pump, fuel filter, fuel pressure regulator) because the upstream O2 sensors would, again, be reading a lean mixture if one of those were failing. (unless an injector was leaking but you have "too rich" codes on both cylinder banks, P0172 (too rich bank 1) and P0175 (too rich bank 2) and it's unlikely that 2 injectors on opposite sides of the engine started leaking at the same time.
So the MAF sensor becomes the "leading suspect".
I know when this stuff is new to people it's hard enough to "wrap their heads around it" without being offered confusing explanations like my last post, and again, please accept my apology.
I wish there was a way to create a table here, here is some live data. I think this is during the car's "close loop" cycle, because I started recording well after the car was warm, and after driving it around for ~10 mins.
Here is some live data you can look at. It seems the AF sensor is going crazy, as you suspected.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13zACG5pZpoAf9_ilovo1B1amIieFNoBL/view?usp=sharing
I don't understand why the AF sensors jumped up all of a sudden. Is it indicating at that moment there was too much air?
FYI I have more data, it's just that it was cyclical. So I think I got all the variations in the data I captured above.
I wish there was a way to create a table here, here is some live data. I think this is during the car's "close loop" cycle, because I started recording well after the car was warm, and after driving it around for ~10 mins.
RPM | AF Sensor B1 (mA) | AF Sensor B2 (mA) | HO2S B1 S2 (v) | HO2S B2 S2 (v) | STFT B1 | LTFT B1 | STFT B2 | LTFT B2 | MAF (v) | MAF (g/s)
1015 | 0.06 | 0.09 | 0.31 | 0.76 | 0.73 | 0.81 | 0.73 | 0.80 | 1.55 | 9.28
1763 | 0.07 | 0.07 | 0.10 | 0.08 | 0.78 | 0.81 | 0.78 | 0.80 | 2.37 | 32.23
2517 | -0.11 | -0.03 | 0.76 | 0.65 | 0.77 | 0.81 | 0.77 | 0.80 | 2.65 | 45.36
2602 | -0.43 | -0.44 | 0.76 | 0.65 | 0.75 | 0.81 | 0.75 | 0.80 | 1.75 | 13.47
1920 | -0.18 | -0.09 | 0.80 | 0.82 | 0.73 | 0.81 | 0.73 | 0.80 | 1.76 | 14.17
1756 | -0.65 | -0.56 | 0.84 | 0.82 | 1.00 | 0.81 | 1.00 | 0.80 | 1.63 | 10.56
1272 | 3.81 | 3.49 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 1.00 | 0.81 | 1.00 | 0.80 | 1.41 | 6.96
1157 | 0.12 | 0.14 | 0.10 | 0.65 | 0.73 | 0.81 | 0.73 | 0.80 | 2.25 | 28.41
1972 | 0.05 | -0.03 | 0.10 | 0.56 | 0.76 | 0.81 | 0.77 | 0.80 | 2.53 | 38.69
2475 | -0.02 | -0.00 | 0.75 | 0.67 | 0.77 | 0.81 | 0.76 | 0.80 | 2.76 | 51.95
2934 | -0.14 | 0.07 | 0.78 | 0.61 | 0.74 | 0.81 | 0.73 | 0.80 | 2.84 | 56.88
2264 | -0.78 | -0.68 | 0.84 | 0.73 | 0.73 | 0.81 | 0.73 | 0.80 | 1.75 | 11.58
Hopefully I Measured all the important sensor readings. If I've missed some, please let me know.
Update:
I cleaned the MAF sensor and don't think that will make any difference. I'm getting the same readings