2004 Camry XLE Auto Trans - 360,000 miles
I have a 2004 Camry that I purchased new - I replaced the engine at 170,000 miles because the timing change broke. The car needs repainting and new front floor mats. It still runs well but is starting to shudder in reverse.
Do I repaint and keep going or replace with a new Toyota Highlander?
JRB
or replace with a new Toyota Highlander?
The new Highlander is quite troublesome, we have gotten complaints on this forum about transmission issues, and reverently one where the engine has died at under 600 miles and Toyota was refusing warranty work.
A Camry would be a better choice.
Do I repaint and keep going or replace
It depends if you have $25k+ you'd like to spend on better safety and additional features - it can be a good idea, they're much nicer and safer than older ones.
But realize that new cars aren't built as well as the old ones are.
Personally I'd keep the '04, it's probably not worth much but it seems like a good reliable car.
Why is it troublesome? Which transmission complaints are you referring to?
TG-81SC (8 speed auto), it's not great in general and Toyota has been having problems with it in particular.
(It would breakdown on Volvos, It's constantly shifting - but recently it has been getting a lot praise from PSA/Mini/BMW owners)
As far as recent complaints from forum members that I remember: Very hard shifting (Toyota dealer was saying "he's catching it between gears"), Whining noise in low gears ("As if I'm driving my manual matrix"), and there was also a minor concern that it wasn't shifting smooth unless the owner drove it in sports mode (but it's minor and many gearboxes are that way, her question was if it's ok to always keep it in sport)
I would keep what I have and repair it. It's still better than most new ones.
Transmission is probably going out. Time for a new car.
I remember: Very hard shifting (Toyota dealer was saying "he's catching it between gears")
Yes. You told them "Late model years shift quickly, softly and nicely." and
"AISIN AWF8F35/45 transmission, shifts are quick, SMOOTH, and effortless - there's no "catching the transmission between gears".
TG-81SC (8 speed auto), it's not great in general and Toyota has been having problems with it in particular.
I'm so confused by the model numbers.
On this wiki page ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AWF8F35) it says the Aisin AW-F8F45 is the same as Toyota UA80E/F, which is same as Volvo TG-81SC. On the same page, scrolling down to Applications, you see: 2020–present Toyota Highlander (V6)
Looking up the Toyota UA80E/F ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_U_transmission) , it tells you applications were 2017 onward Highlander.
Furthermore, there are articles ( https://www.transmissiondigest.com/the-worlds-first-fwd-8-speed-transmission/) equating the AW-F8F45 to the Toyota U880F. Going back to the previous wiki page, this is a different transmission, used only on Lexus models.
Anyway, there does seem to be an issue with the previous generation, and Toyota have extended warranties for them. There are bulletins related to harsh shifting and whine in Highlanders, but only up to 2018 models.
https://www.tsbsearch.com/Toyota/T-SB-0160-18
https://www.toyotanation.com/attachments/mc-10159729-zjc-ua80-warranty-enh-pdf.241080/
Whining noise in low gears ("As if I'm driving my manual matrix"),
Make sense. This was a 2018 model covered by the bulletins.
The new Highlander is quite troublesome, we have gotten complaints
I have heard no complaints about the transmissions on current models.
I'm so confused by the model numbers.
AISIN calls it TG-81SC, Volvo usually uses the supplier's own designation.
It is very confusing...
Toyota used to call it U880, but nowadays they use UA80.
A lot of people just use the exact specification instead of the model name, for example AWF8F35/45 and the AWF8G45 (it's a secret that it exists, but it's a more reliable version).
But even that doesn't exactly explain what exact transmission it is, because there are different gear ratios - both the Highlander V6 and the Peugeot 3008 inline-3 use the same "AWF8F45" but the gear ratios are different (from what I could find online)
Usually there were Toyota U series and A series transmissions, with the name either starting with an A or an U, but the TG-81SC is most often called "UA80", and it seems to be part of the U family (because the A family has an AA80)
Toyota calls it many different names, sometimes they refer to it as UA80 / UB80, sometimes as UA80E / UA80F, ( https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2021/MC-10188917-9999.pdf - in this case they used both UA80E/F and UA/B) sometimes U880 (on older Lexuses)... It's a bit of a mess...
I think they purposefully made it so messy, it used to be easy:
For example (pics of the internet) both of these we're marketed PSA 6 speeds but PSA/Aisin had the decency to write what exact model it was, I do not think Aisin is still doing this.
On some car makers it's even easier, they have naming systems like: A (automatic) 4/6/8 (speeds) G/M/L (small/medium/large) F/R (FWD/RWD) 1/2/3 (generation number) - 1/2/3 (revision) A/B/C (sometimes used to designee a revision). For example on my car it's A6GF-2C. Makes it quite easy to understand what gearbox is needed or what kit is applicable or what issues to expect (for example A6GF-1 had TCC issues and A6LF1 had a lots of differential issues)
I have heard no complaints about the transmissions on current models
The current models have the same transmission as the older model years. I think it'll take a few years to really know if Toyota has managed to implement it correctly - but I found complaints as recent as 2020.
Personally, I'd wait another year or two to see how the transmission is, because I can't find a way to see if Toyota has revised the hardware / software.
Gambling on wether such an expensive and complex transmission is built right (when there's evidence older ones aren't), doesn't sound like a great idea... It can easily be $6k or more to replace with a new one.
I've read that the issue was an "improperly bent nut locking tab" (and only certain serial numbers, 4%), which seems easy enough to fix. But I didn't look into it too deeply.
According to Toyota the solution is installing a reman transmission.
Currently they’re having trouble with the front carrier assembly’s pinion shafts - and their solution is also a reman transmission.
So the dealer is useless for owners who are your of warranty…
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Repairing this requires dropping the sub-frame, and opening up this new and complex transmission - I’d say it’s going to be a few grand to get to it and install that tab correctly…
of course that's the solution for the ones that are already built. The part is internal so it requires transmission removal. My point was that it's an easy fix to implement for models built after, so new models shouldn't have the problem.
Sadly new model years have new issues like front carrier assembly’s pinion shafts on 2021 MYs.
well every transmission has its weaknesses
Not every transmission has such poor quality control that every year there’s a new critical flaw.
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Thinking about it, I can’t find any other cases where the manufacturer has been having such a streak of quality issues - the only similar case I can think of are Kia hybrid dual clutches BUT the quality defects didn’t require replacement to fix the symptoms (either a new clutch pack or mostly just an oil replacement)
I didn't see anything about new flaws every year. Just the one.
Just a small number of cases that are easily fixed, which they are doing under warranty.
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At least they don't spontaneously catch fire and immolate the occupants, eh.
2018 - software issues (Camry)
2019 - more software issues (RAV4)
2020 - improperly attached nut
2021 - low metal quality ( https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2021/MC-10188917-9999.pdf)
2022 - we'll have to wait and see, maybe nothing, maybe something.
That's unfortunate. I haven't heard much complaining. I wonder how many actual units are affected. At least Toyota is fixing these.
And Toyota didn't recall these nor did they extend the warranty or provide good information on repair.
Some of the defective units affected by the TSBs will not be repaired under warranty.
(As they perform repairs only based on symptoms, not if it's affected by the defect)
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In many other cases, Toyota is refusing to repair transmissions with shift shock or whining,
and they didn't put out a TSB that informs the dealer as to what to do if a transmission is broken.
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I really wish Toyota would've handled this better, Honda handled their transmission issues quite well - long warranty extensions.
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Even Ford (Not a company I associate with good transmissions) has a policy to put in thousands of dollars in parts and labour into any transmission that shift rough (with or without a DTC)
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2022/MC-10210471-0001.pdf
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As far as RAV4 issues,
People are complaining on NHTSA and on CarComplaints (not a very reputable source but it aligns with what I've been hearing):
https://www.carcomplaints.com/Toyota/RAV4/2019/
and that's more complaints than the amount of complaints accumulated over 9 years on the worst transmissions out there (1st generation Jatco JF015E)... not a good look for Toyota.
https://www.carcomplaints.com/Nissan/Versa/2013/
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I do not think the RAV4 is worse, but I'm saying that there is cause for concern over how these will last.
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So yeah, Personally, I'd avoid the Highlander for a few years (especially ones with a new turbocharged 4 cylinder)
The issues you mentioned are covered under the current warranty. It's possible that if there is no symptom, then there is no defect.
Apparently the Rav4 issue is resolved for most people with new software in 1hr.