Hey scotty or anyone reading this!
I got 2 questions:
-I went to a mechanic recently for a coolant change and from far i saw he was putting the blue coolant and water, but when i came closer i saw the bottle was concentrated antifreeze, i couldnt tell him to remove it because i didnt have enough money, is it okay to put concentrated antifreeze with what I'm guessing regular water?
-my other question is that when i left the mechanic i stopped for a second because the thermostat felt a little off as it wasn't moving, i looked infront of me and i saw smoke, note that they cleaned the inside of the engine with water and other chemicals, the problem is that the smoke looked like it was coming out of the coolant pipe, i parked on the side for 20 minutes so it would cooldown but nothing really changed, smoke was still coming out but i started driving, when i got back home there was no smoke, how does that happen? Why was there smoke and how did it out of nowhere stopped appearing?
It’s better to buy antifreeze concentrate otherwise you’re paying for water. The smoke you saw was leftover wetness evaporating.
relax.
True but the problem is that i practically live in a desert(Kuwait) where normal temperature is 35-40°c, personally i don't think water+concentrated antifreeze can hold, what do you think?
That'll be fine, the point of anti freeze is so mainly so that the water doesn't freeze (and expand) in the block when temps dip below freezing, this would destroy the block.
What you have will transfer heat very well, as long as the rest of the cooling system is functioning properly it will hold it no problem.
The antifreeze also has anti corrosion substances that your engine needs
Me personally, I usually get the premixed coolant. But @mmj is right, it is more cost effective to get the concentrate.
Mixing water with coolant can be fine or horrible, depending on your water you are using. If it is hard water, I would shy away from using it with coolant. If it isn’t so hard, I would consider mixing it. I have no mechanic justification, just my personal POV based on seeing the containments left from hard water. I wouldn’t want hard water running through my engine.
granted, In a pinch, almost any clean water is better than no water.
you can buy distilled water if you like. It's only what ... $2 a gallon. Still cheaper than premix.
Yup. If I did concentrate, that’s the route I would take.
Only use distilled water
Rain water is similar to distilled water (it is water vapour condensed in the air to form rain droplets).
Exactly. Which is why you don't need distilled water if you don't have hard water.
people I know who are using tap water for cooking have severe solids sedimentation in their water pots.
And how many gallons of it do you have to boil before you start to see anything?
Do you add antifreeze to your food?
"Water turns into steam at 212°F. Mixing traditional ethylene glycol antifreeze with water in a 50-50 ratio increases the boiling point to 223°F"
11 degrees is significant for an engine, and not "a few degrees".
Exactly like I said ... 6C.
When you consider than an uncooled engine can reach hundreds (possibly darn near 1,000) of degrees ... it doesn't make a lick of difference! Antifreeze is put there for freeze protection. It's in the name.
Most of the boiling point elevation comes from having a pressurized system. An increase of a mere 1 atmosphere of pressure increases the boiling point of coolant by 29C.
Source:
https://www.evanscoolant.com/how-it-works/benefits/no-overheating/
Evans is a snake oil merchant.
Im not good at chemistry
No, you are not. Or common sense it seems.
tap water contains chlorine
No, it does not contain elemental chlorine gas. Municipal water contains trace amounts (on the order of one part per million) of hypochlorous acid and hypochlorite ions. which break down quickly. It reacts quickly with other substances to form benign compounds which is why it's used.
And more commonly now, chloramine is used. A different compound altogether.
sources state that chloride is a corrosive agent for aluminium
The ignorance in this statement is mind boggling.
Please turn off the internet, and go pour some tap water into some aluminum foil, and let me know what you see. I think you'll be waiting a very long time. Heck you know what , why don't you make it more exciting and increase the chlorine concentration 1,000,000x and pour some hot bleach into it.
"Aluminum and chlorine do not react rapidly at room temperature, but if the aluminum is heated,
That's nice but the surfaces your coolant comes in contact with are aluminum oxide.
And you omitted certain important details: " heated to glowing red and reacted with chlorine gas "
The miniscule quantity chlorine compounds in tap water would be completely neutralized by the metals in your engine in a matter of hours, if not minutes (just like in your body, or even just left sitting on a table). When you add the silicates or whatever additives your antifreeze contains, that time is probably reduced to milliseconds. The total amount of chlorine compared to the mass of aluminum is like a grain of sand in a desert. Same with the inhibitors in the antifreeze.
It is 100% safe to use tap water that is low in mineral content.
I, and many other people, can personally attest to this.
This is just bogus scaremongering disseminated with all the other armchair internet "knowledge"
"And how many gallons of it do you have to boil before you start to see anything?"
Roughly: two big (250 ml) cups of tea or coffee daily = 0.5 l a day = 15 l (ca. 4 gal) a month. Probably slightly more, since a part of the water turns to vapor in the process and does not land in the cups. I usually have to clean the electric water pot every month, and the sediments that I clean are very noticeable. You just seem not to know what hard tap water is: understandable for someone who never had this experience, und luckily for you. The volume of my car´s cooling system is ca. 10 l. Like I said: I would not like to have those sediments in my engine. Especially when I think about how they would accumulate with every engine cooling water change, if I used water.
"Do you add antifreeze to your food?"
Human body can withstand and even consume most of the normal solids dissolved in hard water, like calcium etc. So drinking hard water (within certain limits) is not a health issue. Equipment is much more sensitive in this regard. Btw. drinking distilled or overly soft water is much more dangerous for health than drinking overly hard water.
"When you consider than an uncooled engine can reach hundreds (possibly darn near 1,000) of degrees ... "
Engines run between 190 and 220 degrees Fahrenheit. An engine over a temperature of 220 degrees Fahrenheit is considered overheating in a car. This gives us a 30 degrees Fahrenheit normal engine temp range. +/- 11 degrees difference the antifreeze makes (as opposed to using just water) is significant - it is ca. 1/3 of this whole range. Especially around the upper limit of this range, this may be the difference between the radiator boiling or not, cause this normal engine temp range goes beyond the water boiling point. IMO very crucial difference, especially for the TS, in the middle of a desert.
"Most of the boiling point elevation comes from having a pressurized system. "
Pressurization is a totally different / an additional independent factor. You can pressurize a cooling system filled with water just as well as you can do it with a cooling system filled with water-and-glycol mix. And - yes, it gives an additional boiling point increase for both.
"Evans is a snake oil merchant."
I checked some more sources (no, I do not run my own lab to verify things by actual tests), and they seem to confirm the abovesaid boiling temp difference between just water and antifreeze.
Me: "tap water contains chlorine … a corrosive agent for aluminium"
You: "No, it does not contain elemental chlorine gas. …hypochlorous acid and hypochlorite ions. which break down quickly"
Clorine-desinfected water always contains all the three - elemental chlorine gas (=chlorine, free chlorine, active chlorine), hypochlorous acid and hypochlorite ions. I did not mention the latter two cause they are of no relevance for the point I was trying to make - they do not actively react with alu like the free chlorine does. This is understandable that you always have some free chlorine in clorine-desinfected water: when you add chlorine to the tap water, there is no way you can guarantee that 100% of this chlorine reacts and turns into hypochlorous acid and hypochlorite ions. Some free chlorine gas always remains dissolved in the water - it is just a matter of how much. There are even standards for such free chlorine gas (they call it residual free chlorine) concentration in drinking water where I live, prescribing not only the max., but also(strangely enough) the min. limits for it.
"The total amount of chlorine compared to the mass of aluminum is like a grain of sand in a desert"
And here I agree with you - acc. to the abovementioned regulations clorine-desinfected tap water shall contain between 0,3 and 0,5 mg residual free chlorine gas per liter, which is a tiny amount. When filled with such water only, my whole cooling system would contain just ca. 6 milligrams of chlorine. Going by the chemical equation, having reacted with the hot alu of my engine block (this alu does not have to be glowing red), this chlorine will turn only ca. 1.2 milligrams of my engine internals into dust. . IMO this is negligible. So I stand corrected in the following regard: I admit, that free chlorine is not THE real reason to not use tap water in the car cooling system.
Regards!
You want to use it in the desert and I'd cut it lightly with water. Here's one reason:
Another reason is it has "Corrosion Protection". I've had to change a rusted through freeze plug in a motor that was ran using straight water in the radiator for many years (in FL) .
I'd never seen that before
If something is dissolved , it's not solid.
There's actually a thing called a TDS Meter (Total Dissolved Solids) to check how truly clean a water sample is. We check our DI water and wastewater systems with them at work. They're actually pretty neat.
https://www.aquasana.com/info/tds-meter-what-is-it-and-do-you-need-it-pd.html
Where I live, a giant aquifer provides our municipal water. A few days after big rainstorms, when we check the TDS, the count will go up, slightly. They're so fine, we need special filters to remove them. They're so minute, normally they remain suspended in solution. They clog up water heaters and such over time.
I know. We have it too. It makes my toilet look filthy. I think the name is stupid.
It's just a technical sounding jargon that just means "particles smaller than 2 micron"
You just seem not to know what hard tap water is
I'm very aware thank you, so there's no need to repeat yourself. It is why I keep saying "It is 100% safe to use tap water that is low in mineral content."
You keep insisting to "use only distilled water"
15 l (ca. 4 gal) a month... I would not like to have those sediments in my engine
that's more than your cooling system capacity ... every month. Do you put that kind of volume of water through your cooling system?
Having lived where tap water comes from the ground, I am quite familiar with the mineral film. Again, this is where the inhibitors in the antifreeze come in. And even if they weren't there..... I think the amount of residue over the life of a vehicle would be pretty negligible anyway.
The volume of my car´s cooling system is ca. 10 l.
modern coolant is good for about 5 years, so over the period of 10 years, you put about 10L of water in your car. , or what your kettle sees in less than a month.
220 degrees Fahrenheit is considered overheating in a car.
an engine will tolerate 220F just fine. I've even seen 250.
It is the water that is doing the cooling. If you live in the desert, you increase the water proportion so that it can carry away more heat.
And if the cooling system works properly, it shouldn't get anywhere near the boiling point.
Evans sells products by marketing bogus claims about their snake oil coolant
you always have some free chlorine in clorine-desinfected water
"A common misconception is that elemental chlorine (Cl2)
is present in chlorinated water. During water chlorination,
elemental chlorine gas may be added to the water at first;
however, the chlorine is quickly transformed into other
chemicals, which actually disinfect the water. Hypochlorous
acid and sodium hypochlorite are two of these chemicals that
disinfect the water.
The term “free chlorine” in drinking water usually refers to
the amount of hypochlorous acid and hypochlorite in the
water. It is important to recognize that these compounds
are different from molecular chlorine even though the
terminology is often used interchangeably."
Some free chlorine gas always remains dissolved in the water
Again, chlorine is very unstable, and does not last any significant amount of time for the purposes of this topic.
"Chlorine is very unstable and reacts with a variety of
chemicals and water when it is released into
the environment."
this alu does not have to be glowing red)
so how is that Al foil experiment going?
but also(strangely enough) the min. limits for it.
not strange at all. There is a threshold for proper sanitation
drinking distilled or overly soft water is much more dangerous for health than drinking overly hard water.
Yup, I do know we obtain some dietary minerals from water. I don't know what it has to do with cooling systems.
Equipment is much more sensitive in this regard. ... IMO very crucial difference,
You have a gift for overstatement
In hot climate, I would use a self-made engine cooling solution containing distilled water + the min.allowable amount of antifreeze concentrate, going by the specific concentrate datasheet.
Technically and in emergency situations it is acceptable to use pure water as coolant, but just short-term.
The reasons you need antifreeze concentrate in your car´s cooling system even in hot climate are the following:
a) without antifreeze, which also has corrision inhibitors inside, water will corrode the internals of your engine and your cooling system.
b) antifreeze raises the temperature at which your cooling solution starts boiling.
The reason you don´t want ready-made (pre-mixed) coolants is that they are mostly frost-resistance-oriented, in other words they contain much more concentrate that is sufficient in hot climate.
P.S. With proper concentrate contents and a functioning radiator cap, your self-mixed coolant will not boil, hence the concentrate will not evaporate and the coolant will stay OK for a long time.
P.P.S. Only use distilled water in such mixes. Tap water contains too much dissolved solids which will all clog your cooling system and engine from the inside.
antifreeze doesn't raise the boiling point appreciably. Maybe a few degrees. That's not what it's there for . It's there for freeze protection.
I've used tap water all my life with no issues whatsoever(we have soft water. Mostly rain). Hard water might deplete some of the corrosion inhibitors though.
If something is dissolved , it's not solid.
Rain water is similar to distilled water (it is water vapour condensed in the air to form rain droplets). Tap water can be hard water.
"Water turns into steam at 212°F. Mixing traditional ethylene glycol antifreeze with water in a 50-50 ratio increases the boiling point to 223°F"
Source:
https://www.evanscoolant.com/how-it-works/benefits/no-overheating/
IMO + 11 degrees is significant for an engine, and not "a few degrees".
After solids are dissolved in water, they are no more solid, correct. Until they get into your water pot (or cooling system). Lucky you, living in an area where your tap water is soft. Most people I know who are using tap water for cooking have severe solids sedimentation in their water pots. My wife regularily asks me to clean our pot with acid. Those sediments really look very solid, like stone. Thats an example of what happens when dissolved solids get solid again. And smth I would not like to happen inside my engine.
Also, nearly all tap water contains chlorine. This is because it's the main disinfection method for municipal water supplies. Im not good at chemistry, but sources state that chloride is a corrosive agent for aluminium:
"Aluminum and chlorine do not react rapidly at room temperature, but if the aluminum is heated, the reaction is vigorous. The product is aluminum chloride, a white powder that fumes in air, reacting with water to form HCl gas and aluminum oxide"
Source:
https://www.chemedx.org/JCESoft/jcesoftSubscriber/CCA/CCA3/MAIN/CLAL/PAGE1.HTM#:~:text=Aluminum%20and%20chlorine%20do%20not,HCl%20gas%20and%20aluminum%20oxide.