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Car Dies when Idling in cold mornings.

  

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Topic starter

I have a 2006 Saturn ion automatic with about 108k miles. When I start it up in the morning it works fine but once I drive and get to a light stop sign, etc it jerks a little bit and the car dies. The lights are still on though. I noticed this only happens first thing in the morning when it’s gotten cold, mornings where it’s not cold I’ve had no problems. As soon as the car dies I restart and I have no issues after that. I took it to the shop and they checked the spark plugs, fuel pump, etc and found nothing wrong.

Does anyone have any idea? I think it’s definitely temperature related because I have zero issues when it’s not cold or in the afternoon.


@kb85873
It could be the Throttle Position Sensor or Idle Air Control Valve. Sometimes they will stick and cause issues. You can try to clean them, but I don't believe either are that expensive to replace. Normally pretty easy to do.


Would any of those cause a jerking motion at idle before it dies?


@kb85873
Yes, I think both will cause that.


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17 Answers
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Try checking your Idle air control valve and if its not that just check the live data and see if everything is okay. You can get alot from live data. 


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Try cleaning the throttle body of any carbon around the butterfly inside the throttle body. I'm sure Scotty has a vid on doing this. An easy job.


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I only think .. there is idle control value ,which enrich the mixture on cold start .. I would give his a good clean with carby cleaner or replace it .. 

Off the top of my head this sits before the throttle body and after the maf sensor.

 

 


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You might want to note the RPMs when you first start the car on those cold mornings.  Then note the idle RPMs when you know that the engine is running at operating temperature.  If at that time it stays at a 'high' idle, where RPMs are about the same as when you started it, the Idle Air Control Valve is likely stuck open.  If you note low RPMs [lower than 800] on a cold start, remaining low at operating temperature, then your Air Control Valve is likely stuck closed. If either condition exists, you might want to clean it [with Throttle Body or Carburetor Cleaner] or replace it.

Is your Check Engine Light on?

 

 


@glennb
I think on cold mornings the rpm on startup is around 700-800. Nothing crazy and when it’s at normal operating temperature it’s about 900-1000 when stopped. There is no check engine light at all which is odd. As soon as the car dies I start it right back up and I have no issues at all. I’m not sure why this happens only on cold mornings?


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@Kb85873


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@Kb85873

Somehow, I obliterated my last rather verbose post to you.  The following is essentially a summary of what I had shared.

If, as you assume, temperature is related to the cold-stall problem that you are experiencing [which seems reasonable], then I suggest that you isolate your troubleshooting efforts first to 'idle air flow.'  Firstly, and at a minimum, I suggest that you clean both the Idle Air Control Valve and the Throttle Body.  To avoid prospects of damaging either, follow prescribed methods for doing so.  Disconnection of the battery before doing such 'preventive/diagnostic maintenance' will be prudent.  Be advised also that you should NOT operate the butterfly valve in the Throttle Body by hand.  You can easily break the electrically-controlled mechanism that controls its position - which could require you to then purchase another Throttle Body.

If it has not been serviced for some time, you will likely see some carbon build up near the butterfly valve.  If so, this would render it a candidate for the cold-stall problems you experience.  Clean it with Throttle Body Cleaner [CRC TB Cleaner works great].  Be advised that you may have to attempt starting the car a few times if you sprayed the cleaner into the Throttle while on the vehicle.  You will have essentially 'flooded' it with TB cleaner.

If after having done this you still have the problem, at least you can have a measure of confidence that carbon/contamination is no longer present to prevent proper operation of the valves.  Either way, I suggest to consider it preventive maintenance - even if it doesn't prove to be the cure.

 


@glennb
How likely do you think the problem is the idle air control valve/throttle body gunked up with carbon? It sounds likely as I don’t believe I have ever have had this done and other then the cold start idling problems the car runs completely fine.


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@Kb85873

If the Throttle Body is original and has never received 'service,' then I consider it to be highly probable among items on the list of likely possibilities.  I'm working on a 2007 Saturn Ion.  Purely a coincidence, I happen to be working on the fuel system.  I have the Throttle Body exposed, revealing the butterfly valve.  This car is 1 year newer and has less miles than yours . . . and it has a distinct ring of carbon build-up around the butterfly.  Yes, even though I do not experience any evident hesitation/stall conditions, it simply makes sense to clean it given what I know.  It's not a problem now, but it certainly has the potential of becoming one in the future if left unattended.

The problem you have described strongly suggests that when you stall at the first stop [when cold], your car has lost control of its idle.  The 2 most likely components involved are, as mentioned, the Idle Air Control Valve and the Throttle Body.  While the practical ability to clean the Ion's Idle Air Control Valve may be questionable, the Throttle Body is readily cleanable.  CRC makes a product called "Throttle Body & Air Intake Cleaner."  Today it costs about $7.00.

Assuming that you have the tools, then for the relatively-small investment of time and money involved, you can clean your Throttle Body.  It's reasonable to assume that you have carbon build-up.  If so, then I suggest that you apply the same reasoning as mentioned above.  If it isn't the cause of your current problem, it can certainly develop into a problem if left as-is.  It's good periodic maintenance with a side benefit of providing useful diagnostic information with regard to your problem.  In my opinion, it is likely to 'fix' it.

 

 


@glennb ok thanks for the info. So I took it in to a local pep boys to have the fuel system and throttle body cleaned to see if that would work. I started it this morning and it still dies but it doesn’t jerk at all before it dies it just slowly dies at the first light upon cold start. But, I do notice when I have the air on (cold/hot) it doesn’t die.

What would be the correlation between the cold start and the car dying? It’s so odd because it works perfectly fine after I start it up again.


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@Kb85873

From a cold start, does the car appear to idle 'fine?'  Is the idle rough?  Does it surge?

With no diagnostic information from the computer, it can prove a bit more difficult to find the problem.  From my perspective, it appears to be a process of elimination at this point.

The correlation between the cold start and dying - if this really IS temperature-related - continues to point to the Idle Air Control [IAC] Valve.  When the engine is cold, the throttle body's butterfly valve is nearly closed, choking off air flow into the intake.  The IAC valve serves to supplement the air entering the intake manifold before the engine reaches operating temperature [at which time the Throttle Body's 'butterfly valve' is more open to facilitate airflow].

The IAC valve appears subject to build up carbon around its circumference and at its 'tip' - where it clearly mates with an orifice passage into the throttle body.  Any carbon buildup there could potentially lead to the valve sticking within the orifice, therefore it would be unable to open so as to facilitate the supplemental air flow while the engine is cold.

It is entirely possible that, if not specifically indicated, the mechanic may not have cleaned the IAC [and its orifice] along with the throttle body. 

As for your situation, by the time you restart the car [after the 1st stall], it is possible that the throttle butterfly will have opened sufficient for the requisite engine 'operating temperature' airflow, thus no longer dependent upon the supplemental air from the IAC.

***

Write it off to a hunch; but, if you have a nearby auto parts store like an AutoZone, consider having your battery and charging system checked out.  Most such stores offer this service for free.  When you run your AC or Heater, both use the fan and draw more current than otherwise.  I'm thinking that the computer recognizes this additional current demand from the battery and, in conjunction with its battery charging functionality, adjusts the engine's operating characteristics accordingly.  This might explain why, when you run the accessory, the car doesn't stall.

 


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Topic starter

So when I first start up when it’s cold it idles fine between 800-1000 rpm.

I believe it has to be temperature related because this problem started as soon as it got cold where I live which was about a month ago. And whenever it’s warm out in the morning (60+degrees) there is no problem.

The mechanic did not check the IAC but cleaned the throttle body and since it’s been cleaned the car doesn’t jerk before it dies, it just slowly dies.

I actually turned the air on yesterday and it still died so maybe that was a coincidence but I actually just got a brand new battery about two weeks ago, so no problem there.

It’s sounding more and more likely the IAC needs to be replaced or cleaned.

How much would a new IAC cost if needed? I can’t find any online that fit my ion.


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I think you MIGHT  have an fuel injector issue......


@oneimich
It could be that, but I had it cleaned a few days ago and still dies.


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Do you have any check engine lights?


@oneimich
No, no check engine lights at all.


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@Kb85873

To the best of my knowledge, everything that I have mentioned about the IAC holds true.  If you recall, I mentioned that I am working on a 2007 Ion.  After having had no luck online finding an IAC for this vehicle, I decided to call AutoZone to ask a rep to look it up on their system.  He said that this model/year is not equipped with an IAC.  If true, I don't know when they discontinued their use on Ions.  This probably explains your difficulty finding one [in which case, sorry for the blind alley].

Time to switch gears, so to speak.  The car stalling would suggest the loss of ignition or something wrong with the air-fuel mixture.  We have been exploring a theory of insufficient air flow into the intake when the engine is cold.  A computer monitors the volume of air flow with the Mass Air Flow [MAF] Sensor.  This information is used by the computer to control the amount of fuel to inject so as to maintain the optimum air-fuel ratio for combustion. A defective or dirty MAF sensor can lead to a plethora of potential problems, including stalling.

Staying with your 'cold engine, stall at first-stop' temperature-sensitive theory, I suggest that you do the following.

Plan to do steps 1 and 2 at the same time.  Step 1 facilitates ready access for step 2.

1- Inspect your air filter, or just replace it if it's been awhile.  You want to be sure that the engine can breathe freely.

2 - Clean your MAF sensor.  Easy to do; but be careful.  This requires special MAF Sensor cleaner that leaves NO residual.  Don't even consider cleaning it with other than MAF sensor cleaner.  The MAF Sensor is very delicate.  Follow the instructions carefully.  Be certain not to touch the inner workings [with your finger or anything else].

3 - Check for any vacuum leaks.  There are many helpful YouTube videos on this topic.  If there is a leak anywhere between the MAF sensor and the engine, unmetered air will enter the intake manifold.  The presence of this air will not have been 'accounted for' by the computer in its air-fuel ratio calculations.

These measures may not solve the problem; however, they will carry you closer to your solution through a process of elimination [by excluding that which is learned] while also implementing beneficial preventive maintenance that can lend to better performance and longer life [as already noted having had your Throttle Body cleaned].

 


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Topic starter

Thank you for the advice. So I took it to my local pepboys and they said it had a po300 code which is a random misfire. They told me the ignition coils were cracked and they recommended I replace the spark plugs. I did both and I started it up this morning and the first light I got to it died again.

I already have replaced the air filter. Would a dirty/broken MAF sensor cause a p300 code?

I was thinking the po300 code was more fuel related. I’ve narrowed down the problems it could be and it is definitely temperature related as I have zero problems after it dies and it starts up again. It only happens in the morning after the car has been sitting overnight.

 


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@Kb85873

No, I don't believe that a dirty MAF sensor would yield a code p0300. The car's Engine Control Module [ECM] monitors the crankshaft position sensor and the camshaft position sensor to determine when an engine cylinder misfire is occurring.  For this code, therefore, I suggest the most likely culprit to be one or more of the 3 basic variables of air, fuel and ignition.

Posted by: @kb85873

They told me the ignition coils were cracked

Had you seen and verified what they are talking about with the coils?  When you say that you replaced 'both,' do you mean that you replaced all spark plugs and all ignition coils?

IF so, then IF the source of the problem IS with the ignition system, the fact that you associate temperature sensitivity with its occurrence would strongly suggest the ICM [Ignition Control Module] to be at fault.  These ICMs can be subject to temperature-related failures.  The price of an ICM for the 2.2L L4 Ecotec engine is currently about $65 [for part number 19300922].

Facing the engine, the ICM is the component mounted on top of the engine immediately to the right of the ignition coils.  It has cooling fins on top to dissipate heat.

Considering the relative ease to do so, on the next 'cold morning' I suggest that you consider using a hairdryer - with care not to expose it to under-hood fuel fumes, of course - to warm up your ICM before starting your car.  Applying heat for about 5 minutes ought to do.  You will have artificially raised the ICM to  be something nearer to operating temperature.  Within a short time, follow your normal driving routine.  If you don't experience the stall at your first stop, you can be relatively certain that the problem IS with the ICM. If this 'works,' then you may want to do this a few times before committing to the purchase of a new ICM.

Given the nature of your problem, this could facilitate a free and 'easy' diagnosis . . . made practical by having replaced virtually everything else in the ignition system.  🙂

Let us know what happens.

 

 


@glennb
Thanks. Yes they replaced both the spark plugs and ignition coils. I will try that and see what happens. I should have told them to replace that too when I was at pepboys!


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@Kb85873

At 108K miles on your vehicle, having replaced the plugs and coils can be reasonably considered a 'preventive maintenance tune up.'  They may all have been original to the car.

While age and hot/cold cycles will negatively influence nearly everything electronic, I wouldn't choose to replace the ICM until I was confident of it being the source of one or more problem.  Another ICM holds the potential for introducing its own set of 'nuances' . . . not to mention that it may represent a waste of money if it isn't the problem.  You probably cannot return it either, being an electronic component.  Many vendors don't accept returns on electronic devices like this.

I look forward to what you find out.

 


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Saturns were notorious for bad Coolant Temp Sensors.


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Topic starter

Just a quick update on my Saturn. After taking it in to get a simple oil change the shop had noticed the exhaust system was all rusted out and needed to be replaced, with a hole in the muffler. The exhaust was so badly corroded the cat needed to be replaced as well, as the connection was close to snapping off. I don’t know if that was related but after taking it in to multiple shops without finding the problem I decided I have had enough.

I weighed my options and decided to get rid of it for a 2012 Corolla!! The main point I want to emphasize is to NOT buy a gm product! I have had nothing but problems and never ending parts that leak or break. I do want to note that I have never had a engine/transmission problem on a Saturn/Chevy but the rest of the car falls apart between 80-100k miles.

I got my 2012 corolla with 110k miles and took it in for a ppp inspection and it was in good shape. 

Let’s hope I have less problematic car than before!


Congatulations and good luck with it! Merry Christmas!


Kb - It's good to know that you have a more reliable ride now. Sorry to hear what you came to find out about the Ion.

We hadn't heard back from you. I was hopeful that you had tried to pre-warm the ICM and that this had provably isolated your Saturn's problem for you . . . the problem having thus been solved and no further concerns to be raised.

Best wishes with your new ride. Toyotas have a great reputation for reliability. It should serve you well.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!


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