Hey Scotty, I’ve heard you talk about the different detergent in gas and how it’s not always necessary to buy fuel injector cleaner. My question is do you need to buy “top tier” gasoline or will any gas do? Thanks!
Top tier gasoline is the only way to go. If you are using cheap fuel, you will be causing issues over time that will cost you WAY more to repair than the additional cost for good gas.
The American Automobile Association (AAA) did a study of this exact question in 2016.
For its test, the lab operated an engine continuously for 100 hours on a cycle to represent 4,000 real-miles of use. The engine was then disassembled, photographed, and its key components weighed and measured to determine the thickness of carbon deposits. Six fuels were used, randomly selected and split among three basic gasoline sources and three Top Tier.
The conclusion was: Yes, it is worth it.
You can read the report in full here:
https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/Fuel-Quality-Full-Report.pdf
You can decide how accurate and impartial the test was for yourself.
Personally, I would like to see the results independently verified by another party.
Yes, Scotty is correct. The Top Tier website lists all of the brands that meet the standard.
The feds mandate a certain level of additives in all fuels. However, a number of years ago for some reason they reduced the required fuel additives by 50%.
I believe that's why the Top Tier fuel came about in the first place.
Basically, a Top Tier fuel will keep your fuel injectors and combustion chamber cleaner than regular fuels not tested by Top Tier.
However, every fuel creates deposits, it's just the nature of gasoline. The Top Tier rating will keep deposits at a minimum.
If you research the brands, some of them have an even larger portion of their cleaning agents in their premium fuels.
If these fuels are used by you exclusively, fuel injector cleaners should not be required.
I would rather pay the lower price for non "Top Tier" fuel and use a bottle of Techron once in a while. The difference in price per gallon (where I live is about 50 cents per gallon) would buy a lot of bottles of Techron.
IMHO get your gas at Chevron.
It has Techron fuel system cleaner in all grades.
Where I live, the stations that sell top tier gas have a nearly 50 cent per gallon premium compared to those that sell non top tier gasoline. Is top tier gasoline that much better such that it justifies a significant premium? Or is non top tier gasoline good enough? I don't want to waste extra money on gas with the absurd high gas prices these days, but I don't want to clog up my fuel injectors either and cause costly repairs down the road. Thanks. I've got an 05 Lexus RX330, 145 K miles.
Yes, all of the tests/videos and information I've seen show that Top Tier fuels do what they are supposed to do.
In my area I use Shell or Chevron, and I can actually smell the difference in the additive packages they add to the base gasoline.
Scotty has a good video on gasoline:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zfE01wRcG0
Here is an interesting article about Top Tier Fuel. Thought I'd put it out there for comments. Thanks.
https://autos.yahoo.com/gas-stations-best-quality-fuel-140000548.html
a few questions that come to mind ...
- how much was Yahoo paid to publish this article?
- How much do oil companies pay the TOP TIER Licensing organization for the privilege of having their stamp?
- How many gas stations actually have fuel which confer the same (or better) benefits as this top tier fuel, but just don't want to pay the licensing fees to have the "special stamp"?
Also,
- How much was AAA paid to say nice things about TTF?
- Has anybody else done independent testing to verify their claims?
MMJoe has really relevant, important questions that I think it may be impossible to get the answers to. I. personally, would be very skeptical of this article and its authenticity.
Like I posted before, while working on the roof of a construction project, I saw a tanker truck deliver to three different gas stations; Standard, Mobile and Safeway. Same tanker truck. Price difference between stations - Safeway, $3.59, Mobile, $3.57, Standard $3.99. Now, who's kidding who?
after that "Top Tier" technician drives up to gas stations that paid their pizzo (membership), waves his hands over the pump to give his blessing, and then slaps the sticker on it.
Then the techron guy does the same thing.
😆
No doubt.
Try to use Chevron gas if you can. It has Techron injector cleaner already in it.
For me, it's not worth the extra 60 cents per gallon they charge.
I looked around a bit but it seems that only the AAA has done a study. But at least one article did mention that auto makers recommend top tier fuel to protect your engine. I guess one could extend Scottys statement about oil changes: oil is cheap, engines aren't, to: gas is cheap, engines aren't.
It's not cheap, though. That was the whole point of this topic.
Engines NEED their oil changed. But do they need this fuel with a special badge on it? (which by the way, nobody will actually explain what it means)
Scotty already said "No. It's a scam". So you're contradicting Scotty AND trying to put words in his mouth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4VyEt6ubzc
I did no such thing. It's just my opinion that top tier gas may protect your engine better just like oil changes protects your engine. Besides, more than one article has stated that auto makers recommend top tier gasoline to protect engines. Just because gas comes from the same refinery doesn't mean that all gasoline brands are the same. I don't know if Scottys opinion is correct or the auto makers are correct.
the auto makers, gas stations and fuel organizations ... they're all after the same thing: your money.
What does Scotty get?
No one is always right. Anyway, from what I've been able to find out, many auto makers will deny warranty repairs if you don't use top tier fuel.
please post where in the terms of the warranty it says that
I don't have a new vehicle made within the last 5 years so I can't help you there. I'm going by some articles that I have read. I know for my 2 older vehicles there's nothing about using top tier gas but they did say to use 87 octane. Since my vehicles are out of warranty it's not of major concern but if top tier gas makes my vehicles last longer I'll spend the extra few cents for a gallon of it. But for those that have vehicles under warranty they should check on this issue themselves.
if it's on the internet, then it must be true, eh.
I looked at the owner’s manual of the 2021 Toyota Camry, the best selling sedan in the US. If you download the full owner’s manual below and go to page 600 it only says “At minimum, the gasoline you use should meet the specifications of ASTM D4814 in the USA”. They also go on to “strongly recommend” Top Tier gasoline, but it’s not required.
https://www.toyota.com/owners/resources/warranty-owners-manuals.camry.2021
A recommendation is not enough to deny a warranty claim. The warranty document would have to stipulate the fuel as a condition of claim.
Great point, Joe. Besides, how are you going to be able to prove you used their so called "Top Tier" gas? Show them all your receipts?
I would imagine that an analysis of the gas in the tank would show if the gas meets top tier status.
@MountainManJoe Scotty is on the internet so you're implying that I shouldn't believe everything he says?
LOL "top tier status" 😆
I'm telling you, don't believe everything ANYONE says.
I just read an article about how 'Top Tier Gasoline Brands' have additional fuel additives that help keep the engine clean. The list includes Exxon Mobil, Chevron and Shell, but does not include BP.
Is this just some marketing BS, some reality, or somewhere in between?
please use the search box to look for your question before posting a new one. Thanks.
Scotty's videos say we don't know how much additive is in Top Tier Gas and most of the comments say to use Top Tier Gas. So which is it? Can we get a definite answer?
Good luck!
ultimately, it's your money.
Two points to be made here: 1 .With the idea that individual experiences and locations vary, it has NOT been my experience, across several states, that non-Top-Tier gas is always cheaper. It may well be more expensive. For example: Here in the Austin metro, several non-Top Tier vendors don't sell gas for less. In fact, it's sometimes more. In my experience, there's a chain of gas and food oddity stores called "Buc-ees" (HQ in Lake Charles Louisiana). These are usually huge facilities, with two dozen or more pumps per site. They are NOT cheaper than a nearby Exxon, a top-Tier gas vendor (according to Gas Buddy, today). The local H.E.B. (a large Texas grocery chain) is NOT selling their non-Top-Tier gas for less than the local and nearby QT (a Top-Tier brand). And so forth.
What I've seen, here, are very large differences in prices based on location and relative levels on competition.
That isn't to say that the situation couldn't or isn't different in other locations. It's just that the universal assumption that the spot market or non-Top-Tier vendors are always cheaper isn't always true.
2. The AAA's findings are a piece of evidence, based on testing. It's fair to ask if the protocol for determining finds is reliable. That's fair and, in fact, that would be an interesting thing to find out, in detail: How did they do what they did? And, secondly, how did they determine what their findings meant (given that there are always secondary variables involved).
That's the nature of the scientific method: Is it so? How is it so? How much is it so? When is it so? and finally, the discussion: Why is it so?
However, the only way to really determine whether this was a well-run and valid scientific test is to replicate it. Casting aspersions isn't evidence. It isn't rigorous analysis.
Right but THEY are the ones making the bold claims, therefore the onus is on them to provide evidence. And in my opinion, it has been less than rigorous. Aspersions based on life experience is good enough for me. They have a poor track record for honesty, and have been found guilty of price fixing in the past. I'm certainly not about to start trusting oil/gas companies on good will, and I don't see them changing their ways anytime soon.
The AAA has conducted research in the recent past on fuel. There's another methodologically-based research report, from AAA, that concluded, for example, that the use of Premium fuel was essentially flushing money down the toilet (in billions each year, by drivers). < https://newsroom.aaa.com/2016/09/u-s-drivers-waste-2-1-billion-annually-premium-gasoline/ > (Download the PDF)
The best way to analyze the claims of Top Tier gas, in a thoughtful way, is to READ the full research report prepared by the AAA. I found the full report, and I am linking it, here: (Download the PDF)
https://newsroom.aaa.com/asset/aaa-not-all-gasoline-created-equal-fuel-quality-report/
Analyzing research protocols and results, in the sciences, often results in healthy debates, in disciplinary journals. That informed back-and-forth creates new theories, new facts, and shakes out dubious claims from the construction of valid scientific fact. (It can also turn established facts into dubious claims, as was the case with the so-called "Lie Detectors.")
This call to actually READ the research report goes back to the axiom that is there an obtainable truth about empirical relationships, via the scientific method. It's a basic axiom of Western Civilization, across centuries.
So read the report, ask good questions of it, questions based on a search for factuality, not the confirmation of prior assumptions.
there are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics
Scientific methodology is only as good as the people operating it. Any kind of research that involves large sums of money will have a political agenda. Humans are too corruptible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42QuXLucH3Q
A. There's a sociological concept of human beings as embodying a range of interests called "homo duplex." Stripped to its core, it means that most people are a mix between one polarity of self interest, or selfishness, and another of altruism, or selflessness. And, of course, these two can co-exist in one project, because it's often a personal life situation or event that begins a more general search for truth, in a particular direction. So, on that level, the search for truth often begins at one level, and transcends to another level (and/or descends back).
Or, consider this fallacy of yours: Some research is propaganda. Propaganda is never a search for truth. Therefore, all research is inherently propaganda.
It's a false syllogism, mistaking the part for the whole.
Or, put another way: The late philosopher, Michel Foucault, studied, in great detail across the centuries, the relationships between the production of knowledge and institutional interests. Here's how he put it (and how I see it, too, in very truncated form):
Foucault described "games of truth" (accepted methods for generating truth claims across many elements of society -- science, law, religion, etc.) and "games of power" (institutional forms and practices for the exercise of power). Foucault made it clear that there were "relationships" between the two, but clearly did NOT reduce one to the other. In a late interview (Foucault died in 1984), he expressed it this way:
__
Questioner/Interviewer (at the end of a question): The one who can formulate truth also has a power, the power of being able to say the truth and to express it as he wishes.
Foucault: Yes, and that does not mean, however, that whatever he says is not true, as most people believe. When you point out to them that there can be a relationship between truth and power, they say: "Ah, good! Then it is not truth."
__
And that is what you've stated here, MMJoe, that if there is any relationship between truth and power, therefore, it cannot be true. That is what Foucault rejects, for reasons that would make this post even longer. So, while someone like Foucault anticipates your thinking, he also makes interesting points about how it's essentially reductive.
Of course, if you don't want to read the report, that's up to you.
Mhmm. Very philosophical. And naive.
In this case, I'm going to go with 0% altruism and 100% selfish desire for money an power. And that's fine. But I don't have to buy it. I need to look out for my own selfish ass.
Mhmm . . . Naive, I am not. I assure you of that. No one who knows me could accuse me of that. You dismiss what you incompletely understand. That's a significant limitation. I can't change that, nor will I try.
Have you ever compared, or have an opinion, of the quality of First-Tier gasolines such as Shell or Mobile versus that of Second-Tier gasolines such as that available at a Circle K or a Murphy/Walmart outlet? I grew up in the oil refining industry as my father was a national distribution exec with Shell Oil and he used to tell me that delivery trucks from all sorts of different outlets (not just Shell trucks) would pull up the loading bays and fill up.
To keep it simple. Yes top tier is better. But using the recommended grade is most important. Top tier gasoline has a better additive package. Using top tier gas full time will slightly clean combustion chamber, limit the amount of future deposits and slight increase in mpg. I did a experiment in 2006 during my senior year in highschool. I had a 2004 Saturn ion and decided to test different gasoline brands. I plotted out a route that was 75% highway and 25 % city. I did everything possible to recreate conditions to make as accurate as possible.I ran 4 full tanks each of regular from shell, Exxon, q stopp, pit stop ( local station). Shell and Exxon where the same but both averaged 17 miles more to full tank compared to pit stop. Q stopp averaged 2 miles more to full tank compared to pit stop. Exxon and shell averaged 15 miles more to tank then q stopp . Pit stop gas left alot of deposits, q stopp did a little better but not as good as Exxon and shell. They did the best and even noticed some cleaning on valves by the 4 tank. One more thing make sure the station has a fast turn around and is known for being reliable and honest.
Yes, the base stock for all of the brands is the same and in a given area is usually drawn from the same source. The difference is in the proprietary mix of additives for each brand. (A long time ago I used to work doing software development and systems administration for the R&D department of one of the big oil companies.)
What is your take on top tier gas. I found an interesting article about this. https://www.autolist.com/guides/top-tier-gas
