Good day Scotty and the community. I'm on the search for a used electric car because of the astronomical prices that i pay to fuel my car. I'm looking at either a 2013 Nissan Leaf with about 60,000 miles on it, or a 2014 Ford Focus Electric with about 71,000 miles on it. Out of these two, which is the better buy? I'm leaning more towards the Leaf.
describe the type of driving you do, ie city/highway , distance etc.
And what is the price of these cars?
I do very short commutes (maybe 30 miles round trip a day or so). I currently have a 2014 Fiat 500L 6 speed manual and I only have 54,000 miles on it. on weekends i drive one-way about 37 miles to my parents house; so not much driving is involved in my week. Also each car was selling for a little over $7,000
Be sure to run the numbers to see what the payback period is going to be running an electric car versus an economical and reliable gasoline model. Figure in the total cost of the car, a home charging station if needed or desired, and the cost of electricity. Also since you're looking at used vehicles, possible battery replacement after a few years depending on how long you keep it. On the gasoline side, also figure in the cost of maintenance not needed on the electric vehicle such as oil changes. See what the figures say.
Depending on the particulars many people may not save as much as they think. (In my own case it's unlikely I would live long enough to see any real savings in buying an electric car, but everyone's situation is different.)
By the way, today I was able to drive a friend's Mini electric car and it was a real hoot, like having an electric go-kart that can be driven on the street. (The dream of nearly every kid back in my day.) A really fun toy. I wouldn't buy one though.
because of the astronomical prices that i pay to fuel my car
Compared to a battery replacement and the cost to purchase that car?
let's say you get 30 UK MPG (25 US MPG), and let's say you're paying 2 euros for every litter, with that traveling the cost to fuel it up is about $38.73 per 100 miles.
In other words, the cost to replace a battery is like the fuel to go 103,000 miles.
(assuming that what you said is true and you can actually get one for $3,500 + Labor, so at least $4,000. I REALLY DOUBT THAT)
ALSO, DO NOT forget that electricity is not cheap at all, so I'd say like 120k miles at least.
But let's be honest, you car probably gets over 25 US MPG, and gas prices are temporary.
In other words, even with unrealistically cheap batteries, EVs are still expensive prices of junk.
If you want to spend less on fuel, get a diesel.
That $3500 price may be for a "rebuilt" battery (only the bad cells replaced) rather than a new one.
@ChuckTobias
good point, I agree.
then the price would make sense.
Personally I have a feeling it’s even worse, I think he means it’s just a used battery.
although it’s still quite a bad deal - $3.5k to make his car last maybe another 2-3 years…
@Dan, unfortunately a lot of people are being hoodwinked by the barrage of electric car propaganda and they don't bother digging below the surface or doing the math.
As much as it’s not the best the ev cars are going to be the way of the future. There are trade offs on both sides when it comes to cost effectiveness but not mentioned above is the tax credits you get with an ev vehicle.
I just checked and the price to replace the 2013 Nissan Leaf battery pack with new is $15,000. That would buy a lot of even high priced gasoline.
@R4nier ,
I wouldn't say there are "trade-offs to both sides", EV batteries age like milk and that's just chemistry - so naturally EVs last 5-7 years.
(people have been talking for decades about "a revolutionary battery technology just around the corner" and it's never true.)
Most people aren't buying cars like that, not many people are interested in loosing $8k a year for the entire lifespan of the car.
-
As far as the cost of gas, in most of the world it's comprised mostly of taxes - and the gov ain't going to give up that revenue that easily:
Owners of EVs will pay "USE TAX" and much higher "GREEN ELECTRICITY" prices, we are talking about x3.5 - x5 electricity and about $1,000 a year in "use" tax.
-
For more info on EV taxation look at this thread:
https://carkiller.com/scottykilmer/postid/212276/
-
I see a couple things that make me think the Leaf is a better choice - it was designed to be an electric, rather than a IC car with the electric parts adapted to it, Nissan dealers support them with parts (per a co-worker who has owned a couple). He recommended that whichever you want to buy, have the battery tested to make sure it is in good condition and will have a good service life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYhMPuHNxVc
As much as it’s not the best the ev cars are going to be the way of the future. There are trade offs on both sides when it comes to cost effectiveness but not mentioned above is the tax credits you get with an ev vehicle.
That "future" is quite a few years off, there is no way to wave a magic wand and get rid of the many millions of gasoline and diesel-powered vehicles. It will take decades, and will certainly not happen in my lifetime. I can guarantee you that I will never own an electric car.
I consider "tax credits" to be irrelevant. If EV technology was really any good there would be no need to attempt bribing or pushing people into it.
It’s not bribing or pushing people into that is the way the industry is going? Not saying it’s going to happen over night but it will happen. And being certified in ev vehicles they aren’t all bad the battery lives have extended greatly over the last few years and they aren’t a bad ride. I get that your not a fan and that’s you’re opinion which there is nothing wrong with, I still wouldn’t consider this whole ev vehicle a conspiracy theory like the man is out to get you. It’s not that serious
The industry isn't going in that direction due to market demand, they are being pushed into it by governments. Ditto for the "tax credits", they are designed to "nudge" people into electric vehicles that they would not otherwise consider.
We'll see when all of the drawbacks of EVs become apparent to the average consumers that get hold of them. You think used car prices are high now? If and when EVs are all one can actually buy new I expect that used gasoline and diesel powered vehicles will be selling for a premium.
I'm not going to get into the motivations behind this ridiculous, destructive, and completely unnecessary forced push to electrification since that is not the focus of this forum.
Technology changes and evolves in different directions it’s the way the world works. Just saying they’re not all bad if you don’t like them then don’t buy them.. nobodies forcing anyone
This isn't the natural evolution of technology at its own pace, it is being forced ahead of its time. I don't see how you can say "nobodies forcing anyone" with a straight face when governments are dictating an end to new vehicles powered by fossil fuels. If that's not forcing the issue then I don't know what is.
That is how technology has evolved forever? Like you said this isn’t going to happen over night it will take decades and to be honest I don’t think it will ever transition 100% they are pushing for environmental improvements which also isn’t a bad thing. I’m not looking to buy an electric vehicle but I won’t treat them as the devil either. T government’s pushing things is life that’s like boycotting the elimination of asbestos in day to day life because of how functional it is or eliminating R12 even though it cools better? This is life and it’s someone’s perspective of extending that life wether you agree with it or not
There was no government force needed for the transition FROM electric cars TO gasoline cars 100 years ago. Many more examples out there of natural technological progress not being forced. Additionally there are virtually no environmental benefits to electric vehicles and may even be detriments overall, but that's getting out of the topics this forum is for. Overall the push to electrification just makes no sense and will not work well for a very large number of people.
I agree with Chuck.
-
@R4nier
I really would love to know what do you mean by "that's the future"? how is it any different than a petrol to the consumer? Basically, how is it better for the consumer?
-
The only futuristic thing about is that some big Govs plan to shove it down our throats.
It's just a more expensive, less user friendly, less repair friendly car - just a different, significantly worse powertrain.
-
Don't get me wrong, I like technology that improves my life - I love that on my car it always holds the steering wheel.
But what I do not like is technology that makes life worse, like a troublesome, expensive to repair, and not-long lasting powertrain.
And I'm saying this as someone who lives in a place where you see cars like the Fluence Z.E EV, MG ZS EV, and Geely Geometry C EV everywhere.
The future is the direction where the industry is going? I’m not sure where you’re from but in the u.s there is a year in which most if not all vehicles are going to be electric? And for longevity I’ve been working on them since 2013 and I still see 13 model year vehicles that have a strong battery capacity and range for the technology of that year when they came out and they have only improved since by double or more? So thus far they last. And to the year when they become more mandated the technology is only going to evolve. You guys don’t like it I get it. It doesn’t change reality. Are they a different animal in the way of repairs… absolutely. It’s up to people like us to evolve with these vehicles. But to sit here and just down play what they are and what they are capable of is pointless but you’re entitled to your opinion. Having worked on them for almost ten years and driven tons of them they are solid cars and the instant torque of the electric motors they get up and go. I personally don’t want one but they are still interesting in there own right and bring something to the table though not for everyone
You're just going in circles here. The fact remains that electric cars have many real drawbacks and few advantages. It is also an incontrovertible fact that EVs are being forced on the market by the force of government dictates, the industry is not going in that direction in response to market demand. Car buyers have not at all been clamoring for electric cars en masse.
It's interesting that the U.S. Post Office ran the numbers, analyzed the pluses and minuses, and has declined to make the bulk of their new fleet electric. It will be 90% gasoline powered, only 10% electric, to the chagrin of the EV pushers.
They are starting to clamor here. I see a solid dozen Teslas on the road every day. Not everyone cares about the drawbacks.
The clamoring is primarily from gadget freaks and people deluded into thinking they are somehow "saving the planet". That's a very small fraction of the buying public.
I see the Tesla crowd around as well, but they are a tiny part of the overall vehicle population. Just makes me think about the truth of the old saying that a fool and his money are soon parted.
All I gather from your statements above is people who like ev vehicles or have an opinion other than yours are deluded fools? I guess you got your point across . Good to see your capable of a non bias opinion on a very broad based forum.. cudos to you chuck
Those who believe they are "saving the planet" by driving an electric car fit into that category, in my opinion. Gadget freaks do not, they simply like being on the bleeding edge of technology, probably in all things. The "point" is that the change to EVs is not market driven, most buyers are not demanding them, it is being forced by governmental edict. That is simply a fact.
Statistics say they made up 9.2% of new car sales in 2020 . Roughly 40 thousand EV's on the road in my city, half of them Tesla. #1 in North America. In Summer 2019 Tesla was delivering 130 per day to customers. There are now more than 1,700 charging stations, as well as Tesla’s network of 14 Superchargers, with another 4 with permits or already under construction, and another 9 planned.
For now, I think they are mostly just well-to-do people who like the smooth ride, lack of maintenance, and not having to go to the refuelling station. These are people who aren't really affected by gas prices.
I give up… consumers don’t design the cars consumers don’t control the design of vehicles on the market .. epa and the government legislation control the market not the consumer. On the consumer side you get what they put out like it or not.. your argument makes zero sense
Well your argument certainly does not. On the one hand you say no one is forcing this and on the other you say the epa and government are controlling it. You can't have it both ways.
You are unreal.. I was simply defending that you don’t have to like them. they aren’t bad if that’s your thing. I would NOT criticize or name call people for liking them because they’re opinion differs from my own. We are here to give people positive productive criticism not mocked for differences of opinion. As for the market you or any other consumer have no control over it which is all I’m saying. I’m not into the whole “ the man is trying to force people into things mentality “ as @mountainmanjoe stated they are everywhere and the market for them grows everyday and there’s a lot of them on the road. You don’t like them then don’t buy one. At the end of the day NOBODY cares
@mmj, the percentage of electric car sales is driven primarily by how hard governments are forcing the issue in their territories. In the U.S. there were nearly 15 million cars sold in 2021, with only about 600,000 being electric. (In the U.S. the politicians have not been able to go full-bore on pushing people into electrics for fear of being booted out of office.)
"For now, I think they are mostly just well-to-do people who like the smooth ride, lack of maintenance, and not having to go to the refuelling station."
You mean like this guy enjoying the delayed maintenance (new batteries) required by his Tesla:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zAhwiQ95Wg
Gentlemen, let’s take a deep breath and each agree to disagree on this one.
That's about all we can do. I do not believe there is any justification in government forcing the market in this direction. Apparently, some are happy with the idea. So, in the immortal words of HAL-9000...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x56O4G8VsiA
One guy... who put on a really good stunt that happened to promote a special effects company. Most owners seem to really like their cars. They're not going " *sigh!* the government made me do it." It WILL get more popular. It's inevitable. Especially as prices drop and the range goes up.
Exactly joe. Not to mention that said it was a 2013 and technology was still new then. They aren’t what they’ve already become and only going to evolve further
Are you aware that the Focus does not have much of a trunk? They simply stuffed a electric parts into a car platform designed for combustion engines (which is why it was discontinued)
the battery is small, and at that age, you'll be lucky to get 70mi of range out of it. 50 if you want AC.
a new battery is a cool $19k + labour (if you can find one. Ford is out. and if they can find a technician who knows how to do it). That buys a lot of gasoline.
I did not. I also found out it doesn't even support fast charging so I'll probably go with a Leaf
Be aware that in the real world, electric cars do not perform as well as the hype promises.
Are you OK with 40 miles range (no AC/heat) when the temps drop?
"The range of electric vehicles can be greatly reduced, by up to 57%, depending on the temperature outside"
AAA conducted a simulation to measure the driving range of three fully electric vehicles — a 2013 Nissan Leaf, a 2012 Mitsubishi iMIEV and a 2014 Ford Focus Electric Vehicle — in cold, moderate and hot weather.
...
"we did not expect the degradation we saw"
Also each car was selling for a little over $7,000
check the health/range of the batteries.
I'm reading that it's $15k to put a new one in the Leaf right now.
I got the ability to call and ask a local Nissan dealer and they said $3,500 plus labor; which comes to $5k roughly or a little under depending how quickly they get it done
local Nissan dealer and they said $3,500 plus labor;
make sure your dealership can ACTUALLY get a battery, and someone that knows how to install it. They could be lying.
"dealer also told him, that while a battery replacement was a likelihood in the foreseeable future, the cost would be in the $5,000 range.
What both Brander and the dealer could not know, is that Nissan would update its battery replacement policy one year later, shortly after carving off its battery-manufacturing subsidiary, Automotive Energy Supply Corporation to the Chinese Investment firm GSR Capital.
No longer in complete control of its battery supply-chain, the cost of replacement quickly jumped to $8,500 and then $11,000 in 2019, sometimes going even higher" ...
After failing to get a response from Nissan Canada for several weeks and visiting a local Nissan dealership where he was quoted $15,000 for a new battery “if they could even find one”
https://victoriaevclub.com/the-leaf-battery-replacement-story/
As someone who has a 2017 Focus Electric, it's not a very practical vehicle considering it's a hatchback. If you value practicality, I would buy the Leaf. In terms of reliability, I feel like the Focus is better because the battery is water-cooled unlike the passively cooled battery in the Nissan. I currently have under 49 000 km on the original battery and we barely spent money on repairs.
Have you looked into the Chevy Volt? They are very reliable and would be compatible with the amount of driving you say you do per day. Even if you go over that amount it has an engine so you won't get stuck.
do you know why it was discontinued? Was it the battery fires?
Battery fires happened with Bolt not Volt. GM discontinued it because they are morons! They want to chase tesla and don't realize that most of the people that buy them are musk fan boi's.
The Volt did too. They don't discontinue cars that do well.
Hmmm.... the only Volt fires I heard about were when it first came out. They stored some crash test ones in a way that was not recommended and they sparked up. After the first couple of years GM never even bothered to talk about the car. Dealers didn't push them either. Just my .02 cents anyway.