Now that I have retired, I’m looking at a new Toyota (former Lexus LS owner 2001, 371,642, McGrath Lexus) Corolla LE FWD. The hybrid FWD for 2024 starts at $23,300 and non-hybrid at $21,900. Obviously the hybrid has greater mileage per gallon, yet the regular is substantially easier to repair, no HV battery. Which one would be the best for lowest cost of ownership and longevity? [Thanks for all the tips over the years, my friend bought a 2023 Venza LE, yet it’s AWD, not for me].
well you're going to have to do some math.
Find out your annual upkeep on the battery. I'm guessing it costs $3k and up to replace, and lasts 10 to 15 years.
Compare that to the amount you'll save on fuel.
Don't forget to factor in the $1,400 price tag difference.
I think @Kaizen has some examples for you.
Typically the hybrid battery should last about 10 years (give or take). How long do you intend keeping the car? (Toyota does make the best hybrid system.)
In general for lowest long-term cost of ownership and lower cost repairs one would stick with the regular gas engine. However if you spend a lot of time in stop-and-go traffic that's where the gas savings of a hybrid really kicks in and that could make the difference.
Can you predict what the price of gas will be next year, 5 years from now, etc.? If you can, invest the money in oil futures, you can have a Toyota Crown with a driver!
But seriously, look at these numbers:
https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/corolla/2023/cost-to-own/?style=401921005
https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/corolla-hybrid/2023/cost-to-own/?style=401936942
not a huge difference if those numbers are accurate
Similar questions here:
- https://carkiller.com/scottykilmer/qa/toyota-rav4-or-toyota-rav4-hybrid/
- https://carkiller.com/scottykilmer/qa/2023-corolla-cross-or-corolla-cross-hybrid-2/
- https://carkiller.com/scottykilmer/qa/would-it-be-better-to-buy-a-brand-new-2022-toyota-corolla-le-hybrid-or-se-trim-model/
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To Hybrid or Not To Hybrid.
I personally like (some) hybrids. At the same time, I don’t think a hybrid is for everyone. It may fit your needs, it may not.
I have a 2004 Toyota Prius, that has 299,999+ miles. It’s been an amazing vehicle. The battery did need to be changed at 275,000 miles.
Hybrids in general are a more complex system. There is an Internal Combustion Engine. There is an Electric Motor. There is an eCVT which figures out the power it is is getting from the ICE and/or Electric Motor to transfer to the wheels. There is the cooling systems, systems with an s, one for the ICE, one for the Electric Motor. And of course, there is the biggest concern, the hybrid battery (traction battery).
At the same time, with all the complexity, the vehicle is somewhat simplified. There is no stand alone starter. There is no stand alone alternator. The Electric Motor acts as both starter and the alternator. On top of all that, when the ICE is on, the energy generated never* gets wasted like when a traditional ICE car is sitting in idle. And on top of all that, the electric motor / eCVT help slow down the car when it regenerates electricity, also saving wear and tear on the actual brakes.
Drivetrain technology aside, the question returns to how much will one be spending on repairs and maintenance on the life of the vehicle, as compared to the ICE.
Here is a spreadsheet that attempts to give a good idea of the break even mileage. How many miles would one need to drive the car, given the price of the vehicles, the price of gas? (We can even add an expected maintenance cost as well).
This spreadsheet is for the RAV4 vs RAV4 hybrid, but the logic is the same for a Corolla vs Corolla hybrid.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-bVho8e_wwS-9oU_et-SPaqGYyqXH0ZTX7-euJiKRCk/edit?usp=sharing
One tab just takes the averages of highway and city MPG. The other tab, provides 5 different scenarios as a mental exercise.
My general recommendation just guestimating (I haven’t delved too deeply) at the spreadsheet data, generally speaking, to get the best bang for your buck, either with a hybrid or ICE RAV4.
Get the ICE RAV4:
If you plan on owning the car for less than 100,000 miles.
If you plan on driving nearly 100% on the freeway.
If you only drive your car around 5,000 miles per year. (Hybrids don’t like to sit around, they need to be exercised.)
Get the Hybrid RAV4:
If you plan on owning the car for more than 100,000 miles.
If you plan on driving 100% city, 75% city, 50% city, 25% city.
If you drive a ton per year, especially stop and go traffic.
Get either:
If you plan on owning it more than 200,000 miles. (While you will save on gas, it may equal out in terms of changing the battery. Most of the Prius stories I hear seems to be able to get at least ~225,000 out of it. Some less mileage, most folks more.)
Hybrids don’t like to sit around, they need to be exercised.
Why not?
One tab just takes the averages of highway and city MPG. The other tab, provides 5 different scenarios as a mental exercise.
what does the last tab show? I don't see any labels or units.
Hybrids don’t like to sit around, they need to be exercised.
Why not?
I don’t exactly know why, although I have my suspicions. Just from following Prius forums and friends over the years, it seems like lower mileage Prius need their battery replaced sooner than higher mileage Prius.
My suspicion is that cycling through the battery is better than letting it sit and drain, in terms of longevity.
interesting . that would make it the opposite of other lithium ion batteries (eg mobile phones, laptops, etc.) , which have a limited number of charge/dischage cycles. When they're gone, they're gone.
Totally. TMK the Prius, and most Toyota hybrids use Nickel–metal hydride batteries. And these things can last forever. Okay, not forever, but a really long time. The hybrid battery pack has a bunch of modules stack side by side like books. It is usually the center ones that expand and eventually fail, and the outer ones that can go on longer. And refurbishing the functional ones battery modules is such a big business.
TMK, it is only the prime and plug-in hybrids that use lithium ion hybrid batteries. I’m not too familiar with the longevity or the refurbish ability of the lithium ion in hybrids. Only time will tell.
what does the last tab show? I don't see any labels or units.
The last time isn’t anything solid. I was just playing with extrapolating the potential mileage between a RAV4 and RAV4 hybrid cost of ownership, in graphical form. It is cheaper to own the hybrid until the battery change, but then gets cheaper again, until the next battery change, and so on and so forth. So they kinda go back and forth between which is a lower TCO in the long run.
looks like they track fairly closely for the first 300k