Hi Scotty, first time asking you a question. My wife and I are in the market for a new car because our current lease on our Nissan Rogue Sport is about to expire in a few months. This Nissan put me right with your opinion on them! This vehicle is just not what it was cracked up to be. With that said I am done with Nissan and I have finally convinced my wife Toyota is just better but she wants to buy this time around. She has watched your videos with me and likes your honesty. She wants to know if she should buy the gasoline version of the RAV4 or is the hybrid worth the extra money?
Calculate whether with your typical driving pattern the extra additional cost of the hybrid will be made up in gas savings during your ownership.
Also if you plan to keep the vehicle more than 10 years or so you may want to steer clear of the hybrid since those can be very expensive to repair when they get old.
A Hybrid car's lifespan is limited by the batteries (10-15 years)
If this reduces the expected useful life to you - buy the petrol.
If you don't keep cars for that long, then the hybrid is probably going to be worth it.
The hybrid tranny in these is more robust than the petrol (so it's great for city driving, traffic, etc.)
And overall, other than the time limited lifespan, the hybrid is just ever so slightly better.
BTW, the car you currently have, isn't really a Rouge. The Rouge sport is actually a rebadged Renault Kadjar/Nissan Qashqai - A very French, very popular car on the European market - from a mechanical standpoint it's very underwhelming but cheap.
That's the lifespan of the battery not the car. If you buy another battery, the car gets another 10-15 years.
Rouge is a color.
1. The lifetime of a Japanese/ Korean car is generally defined by the first repair that’s very uneconomical to perform.
Similarly how people don’t replace engines/transmission on these kinds of $20k compacts - $26k SUVs that have went out on 10-15 year old cars, Even fewer will replace batteries.
(Especially on a car where that’s s pretty labour intensive, like the new RAV4)
And realistically used batteries last 2-5 years, and very few will buy new ones.
-
2. Yep. Rouge is a color. That Renault is a ‘Rogue’.
I don't think $5,000 (new battery price) is so uneconomical with today's car and gas prices.
Especially when that cost is potentially offset by the cost of fuel you saved.
To brake-even after 10-15 years, you need to average 17,600 miles a year*.
-
This includes:
To break-even on purchase price differences you need to drive 100,000 miles**.
To brake-even on a battery replacement this would require another 120,000 miles***
So after 220,000 miles, the unavoidable battery replacement would be offset.
-
Unless OP is planing to drive 300,000 miles, and assuming his car can go that far -
Keeping a hybrid for the long term (over 10 years) makes no sense.
-
The Toyota RAV4 hybrid is just not efficient enough to offset the extra expenses that come with buying a battery hybrid electric vehicle.
-
* This is in mixed driving, if all of your driving is highway you won't break-even!
** The 100,000 mile figure was calculated by Kaizen in his post.
*** The 120,000 mile figure was calculated at $6 per gallon.
-
-
-
calculations:
--------------------------------------------
- REPLACEMENT BATTERY BRAKE EVEN MILLAGE:
(((gal/100miles delta)/100) * ($ per gallon)) * (brake even millage) = battery cost
=>
Brake even millage = (battery cost) / (((gal/100miles advantage)/100) * (price per gallon))
=>
Brake even millage = 5,000 / (((3.2-2.5 [from fueleconomy.gov])/100)*($6 per gallon))
=>
Brake even millage = 119,047 miles.
--------------------------------------------
- AVERAGE YEARLY MILLAGE TO BRAKE EVEN:
(Purchase premium brake even millage + Battery replacement brake even millage)/ avg(10, 15) = yearly millage to brake even when the battery goes out
(100,000 + 120,000) / 12.5 = 17,600 miles per year.
--------------------------------------------
Hybrids have the maintenance cost of an ICE and an EV. I personally recommend an Electric Vehicle (EV) for most people. How much time and money do you currently spend keeping up with the oil system, cooling system, fuel injection system, transmission, camshafts, pistons, hydraulic actuators or timing belt on your ICE or hybrid? EVs are virtually maintenance free (still have brakes pads, wheel lube, and tires). #1 issue for EV issues currently is the 12v battery. This is from using legacy 12v accessories from ICE cars and will be eliminated when the accessories designed specifically for EVs become available (next couple of years). With respect to the main battery, if your mange your cell phone well, you will understand most of the challenges you will have with an EV. You integrate charging the EV into your power management daily routine, and you are done for most of the time. On rare occasion, you have a taxing day (long trip), you make sure you are fully charged to start. You have planned out how long the charge will last, and you have a plan for how, when and where to recharge if needed. You need to account for time necessary to accomplish recharge. You can plan to do other things while the car is charging like eat, use the restroom or site see. Aps on your cell phone may be helpful. It may be difficult to think of managing a car more like a cell phone, but this is a skill set most of us already possess. If you're a person who can't manage your cell phone, you probably can't manage your ICE car either. Vehicles I currently own: 1980 Porsche 911 (hanger queen), 1984 Chevy Corvette, 2014 Tesla Model S, and a 2020 Kia Niro EV.
To Hybrid or Not To Hybrid
I personally like hybrids. At the same time, I don’t think a hybrid is for everyone. It may fit your needs, it may not.
I have a 2004 Toyota Prius, that has 299,999+ miles. It’s been an amazing vehicle. The battery did need to be changed at 275,000 miles.
Hybrids in general are a more complex system. There is an Internal Combustion Engine. There is an Electric Motor. There is an eCVT which figures out the power it is is getting from the ICE and/or Electric Motor to transfer to the wheels. There is the cooling systems, systems with an s, one for the ICE, one for the Electric Motor. And of course, there is the biggest concern, the hybrid battery (traction battery).
At the same time, with all the complexity, the vehicle is somewhat simplified. There is no stand alone starter. There is no stand alone alternator. The Electric Motor acts as both starter and the alternator. On top of all that, when the ICE is on, the energy generated never* gets wasted like when a traditional ICE car is sitting in idle. And on top of all that, the electric motor / eCVT help slow down the car when it regenerates electricity, also saving wear and tear on the actual brakes.
Drivetrain technology aside, the question returns to how much will one be spending on repairs and maintenance on the life of the vehicle, as compared to the ICE.
Here is a spreadsheet that attempts to give a good idea of the break even mileage. How many miles would one need to drive the car, given the price of the vehicles, the price of gas? (We can even add an expected maintenance cost as well).
Strangely enough, this spreadsheet is for the RAV4.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-bVho8e_wwS-9oU_et-SPaqGYyqXH0ZTX7-euJiKRCk/edit?usp=sharing
One tab just takes the averages of highway and city MPG. The other tab, provides 5 different scenarios as a mental exercise.
My general recommendation just guestimating (I haven’t delved too deeply) at the spreadsheet data, generally speaking, to get the best bang for your buck, either with a hybrid or ICE RAV4.
Get the ICE RAV4:
If you plan on owning the car for less than 100,000 miles.
If you plan on driving nearly 100% on the freeway.
If you only drive your car around 5,000 miles per year. (Hybrids don’t like to sit around, they need to be exercised.)
Get the Hybrid RAV4:
If you plan on owning the car for more than 100,000 miles.
If you plan on driving 100% city, 75% city, 50% city, 25% city.
If you drive a ton per year, especially stop and go traffic.
Get either:
If you plan on owning it more than 200,000 miles. (While you will save on gas, it may equal out in terms of changing the battery. Most of the Prius stories I hear seems to be able to get at least ~225,000 out of it. Some less mileage, most folks more.)
To brake-even after 10-15 years, you need to average 17,600 miles a year*.
No.
A hybrid Camry saves you 1.9 Gal per 100 mi average.
The average person drove 14,000 miles in 2022, so a hybrid would have saved you 266 gallons annually.
The average price of regular gasoline now is $3.28/gal. Over ten years, you are saving $8,724.80.
The battery is long paid for, and in 15 years it has paid for itself twice.
gasoline version of the RAV4 or is the hybrid
posted by: @mmj
A hybrid Camry saves you 1.9 Gal per 100 mi average. (...)
The battery is long paid for, and in 15 years it has paid for itself twice
Hi,
I definitely remember OP asking about and this discussion being about the RAV4 - not the Camry.
As I have previously shown this is not the case with the RAV4.
A hybrid Camry saves you 1.9 Gal per 100 mi average.
The average person drove 14,000 miles in 2022, so a hybrid would have saved you 266 gallons annually
Let's perform the same calculation for the car that is the subject of OP's question:
So for the RAV4 that's 0.8 saved per 100 mi (most efficient hybrid - most efficient gas)
That's 112 gallons a year assuming mixed driving.
So at $3.28/gal so over the 12.5 years (=175k miles) that your battery will average you you saved only $4522.
After you payoff the MSRP difference, you're left with $1772 - not enough to cover the battery that's about to go out at that age.
I rest my case.
As I said, the RAV4 hybrid isn't efficient enough.
"The Toyota RAV4 hybrid is just not efficient enough to offset the extra expenses that come with buying a battery hybrid electric vehicle."
And obviously this was about the RAV4 and not all hybrids,
some like the car I use - the most efficient hybrid car in the world according to the 2016 Guinness world record, pay off massively!
The same is also true about the Corolla hybrid, Camry hybrid and other entries.
The RAV4 is just not one of them.
1st gen Kia Niro (SUV, sadly not the MPV), a roughly Corolla Cross sized compact crossover.
You can easily replicate the world record result with moderate driving even with the A/C on.
Saves thousands of dollars on fuel, doesn't compromise on being a big, soft, practical and perfect to go to adventures.
And yet I definitely don't recommend it as a long term vehicle.
As I said, the RAV4 hybrid isn't efficient enough.
Your original answer sounds like it's talking about all hybrid cars.
A Hybrid car's lifespan is limited by the batteries (10-15 years)
Where I live, gasoline costs $7.95/gal bringing the RAV4 hybrid savings to almost $9k per decade.
The hybrid version costs $2k more.
So it pays off big time here.
Batteries warranty is 10 years/150,000 mi, and from what I'm hearing, they usually last well beyond that.
> "Where I live, gasoline costs $7.95/gal bringing the RAV4 hybrid savings to almost $9k per decade."
On the topic of RAV4 viability in places with high gas prices:
-
In Canada it seems to does make sense to get the RAV4 Hybrid over the RAV4.
-
But, with such high gas prices, since the RAV4 Hybrid still doesn't offer greater seating capacity, the interior isn't that spacious, and the boot is pretty small - Wouldn't it make sense to get a more efficient compact/sub-compact?
-
As I see it, Outside of the US, where gas costs fortunes, the RAV4 Hybrid hardly makes sense.
I traded off unrealistic amounts of headroom and useless extra rear seat leg room and gained half of the RAV4 MSRP on purchase price alone.
-
Also lets not forget how much unnecessary 'ecology' tech the RAV4 and RAV4 hybrid have: 2 Injectors per cylinder (GDi+MPi), An EGR system known for corrosion issues, Balance shafts driven by plastic gears (has been an issue on previous Toyotas), Integrated cooled exhaust manifold, Electrical Variable Valve Timing ("VVT-iE"), Engine head integrated, high pressure fuel pump, ECU controlled variable Performance Oil Pump, Electric water pump, ECU controlled thermostat, Cooling system shut-off valves.
The boot is huge. You would know if you ever drove one. It's even bigger than the previous generation. The RAV4 offers much better visibility and room than a compact. It's apples an oranges. If you can't afford an SUV, or don't need the capacity, then sure get a compact. Never a horrid Korean one though. They feel so cheap.
Most of those systems you mentioned help fuel economy, ecology notwithstanding.
> "The boot is huge."
Slightly bigger than what I'd expect to see in a SUB-compact or a Sports 3 door, >20% bigger than the tiny previous generation HR-V and Volvo C30.
So the RAV4 has about 40% less space than competitors that make good use out of that space.
-
> "You would know if you ever drove one"
A friend has one from work, drove it around and didn't like it.
-
> "They feel so cheap."
I actually bought mine because it's euro-hatch levels of plush, and really well laid out.
Doesn't even feel worse than what I was looking to replace with it, my trusty Volvo C30.
Was not surprised to later discover that it has won design awards and was designed by in Frankfurt by the Germans.
(while from a mechanical standpoint it's the simplest I've seen yet)
I was so impressed by it, that after half a year of use - I went out and bought another...
> "Most of those systems you mentioned help fuel economy, ecology notwithstanding"
Mostly not, the stuff I listed is only suspicious systems or systems that are known to fail on previous generations.
Especially plastic gears.
(The brake in stop-start applications, and that's what the hybrid system does)
The Hybrid version of the RAV4 is only $800 more than the conventional version. Well worth it as you will get much better fuel mileage. I have a Prius and get 45-50 MPG on my commute to and from work.
Hybrids have the maintenance cost of an ICE and an EV
Nope.
Most maintenance items are common to both the EV and ICE.
The only thing added in a HEV is replacement of inverter coolant
(And most certain models may require more frequent inspection of the alternator belts)
How much time and money do you currently spend keeping up with the oil system, cooling system, fuel injection system, transmission, camshafts, pistons, hydraulic actuators or timing belt on your ICE or hybrid?
Obviously no time at all. most of those items are maintenance free or non existent.
#1 issue for EV issues currently is the 12v battery. This is from using legacy 12v accessories from ICE cars and will be eliminated when the accessories designed specifically for EVs become available (next couple of years).
This is not true, the issue is battery longevity and a severe anti-repair stance from Tesla.
Besides the fact that new Teslas don't have a 12V (they have a lifetime 16V battery), Even new Hyundai-Kia HEVs (not only EVs) have a lithium ion lifetime battery.
2020 Kia Niro EV
What a great example of a car that requires no less maintenance than an ICE or HEV.
You have to perform 10k mile / 12 months maintenance on it, funnily enough with a 20k mile interval on brake fluid, and cooling fluid replacement every 40k miles / 36 months.
That's a lot of maintenance, also quite difficult maintenance items.
2014 Tesla Model S
"12,500 Miles or 12-Month Service Intervals"
As it seems you're spending the same amount of time and money maintaining your EVs as most people maintain their ICEs / HEVs.
I personally recommend an Electric Vehicle (EV) for most people... How much time and money do you currently spend keeping up with the... cooling system
EVs have cooling systems
How much time and money do you currently spend keeping up with the camshafts, pistons, hydraulic actuators or timing belt
I have never touched a camshaft, piston, hydraulic actuator or timing belt in my life. I've had several ICE cars.
