I know this is probably a stupid question, but what happened to American car manufacturers? I own a 1991 Ford F-350 dually diesel with almost 500,000 miles, and a 2007 Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptor with 220,000 miles. Both have had maintenance issues, my truck had injector issues yes, but that's been fixed. My car had the trans go out at 201,000 but it's a retired Police car, that got beat on by the cops for a large part of it's life. Why can't manufacturers, Ford included, build a vehicle like both of mine, that go on the principle of if it isn't broken, don't fix it? My wife has been trying to push me to buy a new vehicle, and I refuse, because I have 2 perfectly running, high mileage vehicles, that are a joy to not have to spend thousands on every month.
yea its true japanese companies are terrible at busines they see a product and want to build customer loyalty and long lasting reliable stuff. and that doesnt make as much money as american companies saving pennies convert steel to plastic firing staff and managers when they fail to maximize profits etc
Okay that is where your kinda wrong but also some what correct. Japanese people do know how to do business but they are not greedy as we Americans. They care about their customers loyalty no matter what the product is.
For example
We americans think for next five years while Japanese think of next 100 years.
Not only that we american want to grab grab every single penny out of our customer not matter how the product is, while Japanese make good product no matter how long it takes and keep improving it until its ready before handing out to customer. If Japanese sell one good product and customer like it then that person will tell 100 other people and they our gonna buy the same product from same companies.
Okay this one is bit off topic not about cars. Western video games now a days released unpolished and uncompleted video games then fix over time or leave it the way it is and also charge players to have fun while Japanese video game developers actually put effort in their video games u get bang for the buck
I guess you didn't see the Nissan topic.
Nissan is history they USED to make good cars now they are all piles of junk
I think I remember scotty telling in one of his videos that nissan was using Gangs to get loan for people to sell car I forgot
They were doing anything they can to sell their junkies
but how can that be? The Japanese aren't greedy and care about their customers for 100 years no matter how long it takes.
Okay nissan went down hill because of poor decision made by Charlos aka the ex ceo of nissan plus he was not even Japanese
But toyota and Honda are not. They do do give a dam about their customers just take a look toyota is building a whole new city at Japan
https://youtu.be/tFw6-10izT4
See even scotty mentioned it nissan bad practices
Nissan is a Japanese company
I agree with you they are but they quality is going down and they don't give dam about their customers
"Japanese people do know how to do business but they are not greedy as we Americans. They care about their customers loyalty no matter what the product is."
- CarlJason98
I am kinda lost on what are you saying just wanna make sure we on a same lol sorry
me too
Okay I was trying to say Japanese manufacturer Toyota And Honda are the only ones who really care about their customers in making good products but nissan lost its roots when Charlos become the ceo and combine nissian with Renault Even though nissan are Japanese but they are not reliable as compared to Toyota and Honda
what about Mitsubishi?
Same as nissan
And after partner ship with nissan they quality rock bottom really bad ...and I lost hope when killed Mistibushi Lancer so yeah
Suzuki?
Suzuki are reliable but the problem was they were not successful in America because of their design and power.
Americans like big and powerful cars while Suzuki was small and city car to take you from Pount A to B so they lost alot in usa. I still see some on the road in usa but it is once in full blue moon and they are really old
To be honest Suzuki Are the best selling cars in third world countries right after Honda and Toyota
Although they make nice bikes. My dad had on when we were back in newyork he sold when we moved to texas I forgot the full name but it was if I am correct 1990 Suzuki motorcycle
That Is what I said but scotty said that in further simplified way but I agree with the video
Here is an oldie but goodie in terms of a management style. (copied from somewhere on Reddit)
A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (General Motors) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.
On the big day, the Japanese team won by a mile.
The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat.
A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action. Their conclusion was the Japanese team had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person rowing. So American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.
They advised that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing. To prevent another loss to the Japanese, the Americans' rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.
They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1 person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the "Rowing Team Quality First Program," with meetings, dinners and free pens for the rower. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses.
The next year the Japanese won by two miles.
Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower for poor performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year's racing team was outsourced to India!
{blackemo}:laughtertotears: True Story
It's all about profit for the shareholders. That's all American companies are concerned about. They don't care about quality, they definitely don't care about their workers, and they SURELY don't care about their reputation.
If it makes money, in a capitalist society, then they will make it and sell it. Even if it is total junk. Anything for profit. It's too bad.
Exactly. If consumers cared about quality and were willing to pay for it, manufacturers would make that.
The US makes crap cars anyway , we’re truck and SUV people.
Except for the Ford F-150 American trucks and SUVs are crap as well.
@satter if new you mean 18 or newer you would be correct but I disagree. I have been impressed with my 150 5.0 it’s done everything I needed it to without a hiccup. I agree that SUVs aren’t built well at all.
Don't worry, plently of better made Japanese models out there.
SUV is the new sedan. Unless you want a luxury vehicle.
The video summarize what scotty said.
It tell how Japanese are reliable and what method they use aka (kaizen). Why gm and ford caint pull their stuff together and do a strong come back and he made some mistakes in video but other than that I agreed with
Gotta say discussion was really intresting learned about cars and marketing strategies of cars
Japanese companies definitely care about their customers more than American companies. Not too hard to do. All they have to do is care, AT ALL, and they've beat them.
I always think back to the GM ignition recall as I was actually at GM during that time. Good ol' Mary Barra, who was in the department that engineered those ignitions at the time, talking about "I saw nothing". {black}:deceitful:
Then you have "new" GM saying you can't sue them for "old" GM problems, but at the same time they scream about how corporations should be treated as people. You can't have it both ways. Then Ford goes and knowingly puts bad transmissions into the Focus and Fiesta.
It is as I have said a million times, American companies care about one thing: Profit. At any cost, above all else, and above anyone. And....that's why they fail and have to get bailed out, etc.
Businesses exist for one reason: make profit. That's their purpose. If they don't, they fail and cease to exist.
I definitely agreed with you buddy there was a time GM and ford made good cars now they are making endless piles of junk. Trust me modman I took your advice I was about to buy mustang bullit but thank god I took your advice and took mustang bullit for a road test it was a 2019 only had 10000 miles on it transmission was so bad that it was slipping I bought Civic type R I stead. The dealer was trying his best to sell me that car he was making excuses like hey it is a display not an actual car and was telling telling me it had JP power award and is fast and reliable .....I wanted to punch him in the face so bad ...
Lol well the MT-82 is a terrible transmission. You dodged a bullet (pun) on that one. Even with low miles like that, you can still feel them starting to act up. The Bullitt is a beautiful car, no arguing that and it sounds great. But if the transmission is bad nothing else matters. Plus they charge way too much for them. I'm glad I could help. The Type R will serve you well I'm sure. I'd have one but I'm too tall for it and the wife doesn't do bumpy rides. Lol.
@mountainmanjoe Yes I agree. Businesses are in business to make money. I wouldn't be doing very well if I wasn't making money at my shop. But I don't screw over my employees and when Covid hit, the first thing I did was guarantee everyone that I would not lay off a single person. While huge companies slashed their work forces day one to save money because they did not have a plan in place in the event of an issue, we have made it through intact, just as I said. The difference is I took some losses during crunch time, but it was worth it to keep my crew together. American corporations do not care. I think I mentioned this before, but my Dad worked for the same company for 35 years before he retired. I watched him get screwed over for promotions because he didn't have the right connections. The same puppets that they put over him had to come to him for advice because they were brainless idiots...they just golfed with the right people. Literally. And after he had been there 28 years, they sent him home one weekend and told him to come back Monday to see if he still had a job. That's after they made him relocate down here to Texas, which I HATE, from Virginia which I loved. At the time he had a wife and three young kids. Did they care? No. And I watched them work him like a mule in his later years to try and get him to quit so they wouldn't have to pay his retirement. My wife's Dad is now going through the same deal at his job as he is approaching retirement. The only reason they didn't fire my Dad is he has a permanent disability suffered on the job and it would have gone to court. I picked him up from work one day and I heard his boss ripping into him like nobody should be talked to. I got out to pummel him right there but my Dad signaled for me to wait in the car and leave it. So when it comes to American companies, yeah, they don't give 2 cents about their workers whatsoever. When I started my company, I promised myself and my family it would be different and I would put people first. And I did. And Japanese companies do the same. Kaizen workshops are presented throughout the US, but when employees go back to work they find it was just a check box for management, nothing is being implemented, and the divide between workers and bosses remains. You get a boss who can never be wrong and is also completely stupid and the communication breakdown hurts the company and all involved. I can tell you first hand how GM handles issues. The manager is always right. Doesn't matter what engineering or mechanical says, the manager is always right. And....look at their quality. This is not a good topic to bring up with me. {black}:fighting: {black}:deceitful:
Me and My family especially my dad had to go through the same bias like your father did by the American Corporations. Back in my country my father used to work at Toyota manufacturing plant they made parts for Toyota and Lexus. My Dad was manager over there it was his dream job like he was always happy when he came home until the plant was shut down due to politics. Then he started applying for jobs both in and out side the country luckily he got a call from GM motors. He was offered the same position with better pay. It was a risky move but my mom and dad decided it was good for and America is land land of opportunity so we send my dad over there to work . As soon as he got the citizen ship he sponsored us and I just finished high-school. When I was first saw my dad after five years he was changed. Like was angry at small stuff and was always complaining when got back from work. I got graduated in 2015 from University and move to newyork and was working as software engineer then moved to texas in 2019 when cobid hit. My Dad lost his job because gm shut down there plant in Detroit and he had no choice but to sell our house because we were behind in paying loan. I did my best to send money from here but it wasn't enough coze I had pay my own loans. So once we move to texas it was really hard me and my family had to start all over again from stractch and right now in everything got stable together we bought a house in texas and everything is working out so far and I had to tell my dad to retire coze he is on his 65 and I told him me and my gf got it now it is your time to rest .
I'm sorry you had to go through that, but it's awesome you can help your Dad out with retirement. My Dad hung in there and retired so he got his pension and everything which was good because even though I offered to help him, I know he is old fashioned and it would be a tough deal for him to take help. He is stubborn, and so am I. Lol. Cool story though. Thanks for sharing. {blackemo}:hotdrink:
Of course if a business wants to attract good talent, they need to provide an attractive place to work. That goes without saying. But you have to run a successful business first and foremost. If you don't make enough money, you won't be employing anybody. You can't save the world if you're poor. Treating customers comes down to profit as well. If you don't satisfy customers enough, sales dry up.
Big Oil has more money than anyone. Do you see them stepping up to save the world? No. In fact, they have blatantly lied for decades (not debatable, proven true) about the harm oil does to the environment and a lot more. So I agree, you can't save the world when you're poor. But these companies have amassed a ridiculous fortune on the backs of others, and give back nothing. And even if they do give a crumb from the table, believe me, it's a tax write off. Anyways, that's my piece and my take on this subject.
oil companies provide energy and a huge portion of raw materials to the world. I'd say that's a pretty big contribution already.
{blackemo}:laughtertotears: {blackemo}:wink:
How are Toyota and Honda sales and profits compared to GM and Ford’s, at least here in the US? What about stock price?
GM stock: $56.72, Ford stock: $13.33, Toyota Stock: $161.16, Honda stock: $30.98. And when it comes to cash on hand, Honda and Toyota have a huge advantage. Trillion to Millions.
So, can we conclude Toyota/Honda’s way of running business is paying off for them? (Perhaps even a case study for other companies.)
Yes, going by the hard data, that is a logical conclusion. {blackemo}:hotdrink:
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
I think stock price is pretty far from a reliable measure of success. They change overnight. Profit is important but can be fudged, and short lived too. I think long term stability and growth are signs of good business decisions and adaptability. You can't argue with units sold and market share.
I say keep buying American and enjoy. Obviously American companies can do no wrong by you, so proceed. Not going to argue FACTS with you anymore as you make up yours as you go. I have something like 10 different long, drawn out conversations going on with you across the forum and it's the same in every single one. If you want to continue the pointless banter back and forth, hit me up private but at this point this is all way off topic, beyond the pale, and taking up space on the thread.
American stocks are kinda like gambling at a casino, but you know what you're doing. @Mod_Man You seemed like a good manager who cares about his people. That's the person I'll willing to work with.
Of course Americans make crap cars. We’re not a car country we are a SUV and truck country. That’s what we are good at historically speaking. I’ve talked to multiple different people from militaries all over the globe. They always tell me 2 things. We wish we could have guns like you And we wish we could own a big American truck. Now in terms of overall reliability realize reliability means safety now to most Americans. It doesn’t mean longevity. The decline in real reliability comes from very poor management, loads and loads of poor tech as well as unproven tech and the Government that adds stricter and stricter regulations constantly.
Chevy, Buick, Ford, Chrysler sedans have gone the way of the deSoto and Studebaker. Why buy an Impala, Taurus, 200, or LeSabre when Toyota and Honda build better sedans, often for less money, and certainly for a lower total cost of ownership.
@jebrim Honda doesn't make a V6 Accord anymore, just the 1.5T and the 2.0T four cylinders. But as someone with a 2.0T Sport, I can tell you they are fun to drive and reliable.
People are buying trucks and SUV's. American companies exist solely for profit, so they are going to drop whatever isn't selling and move to what is. Not a bad thing here as American sedans have been junk for decades anyway.
@mod_man haha couldn’t agree more I would say GM is an exception . They’re trying to cover so much they can’t keep up with anything.
my bad didnt see he said new
@jebrim No worries! {blackemo}:hotdrink:
I think one of the big reasons that SUV's are more popular from other makes is because of Toyota and Honda.
The Accord and The Camry.
The Corolla and The Civic.
Everyone I know has at least one of these cars in the family.
Their sedans are just too damn popular, that no one is looking to buy any other sedan. If everyone is buying these sedans, there isn't much room for the other makes.
Remove fleet sales and.....Ford and GM fall out. Fleets keep them alive. That's why they build their HD and commercial vehicles well, and their consumer products are junk.
Looks like Toyota has overtaken FCA for the 3rd spot over the last 5 years.
" Toyota rose as a result of an increased focus on light truck models in the lineup. "
( Estimated U.S. market share held by selected automotive manufacturers in 2020 )
Fleet sales accounted for nearly 28% of Nissan's 2019 sales. More than GM.
These are the top 20 vehicles sold in the U.S. ranked by 2020 full-year sales, according to Motor Intelligence U.S. Market New Vehicle Deliveries Report.
Not sure why you keep bringing up Nissan. Everyone agrees they make garbage. {black}:idontknow:
You mentioned that GM wouldn't be "alive" without fleet sales, but didn't mention Nissan who owes more of its USA sales to fleet business than GM does.
I mentioned Nissan earlier because the CarlJason made it sound like being Japanese automatically makes a brand more reliable. He then backpedalled and changed his tune to just Toyota and Honda, and I have doubts about Honda.
My bad I should have been more specific when I said Japanese brand I meant toyota and Honda practices I didn't meant nissan and Mistibushi those cars are trash u know and I know it and everyone knows it
it's important to be as accurate as possible 🙂
So are we going to just wind up crossing swords on every thread, or what? It feels that way. {black}:sad:
Crossing words perhaps (no 's'). I enjoy a bit of polite debate.
If you have problem hearing opinions you don't agree with, then perhaps you shouldn't post yours.
ModMan And MountainManJoe I love you guys both please dont start car enthusiasts civil war
Can we make peace
Guys.....
I don't understand this talk of war and swords. It's called conversation, and people used to have it without getting deranged. But if you don't like it, then why did you click on this topic?
Go talk about what wipers to buy, or whatever. 🙄
Why do I get the feeling your being sarcastic hummmmmmmmm
Press X to doubt 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
I don't understand the question.
To sell a lot of cars cheaply , and make money doing it, you have to mass produce them. You also have to appeal to the most people by making it "one size fits most". Most of the buying public want hot and trendy cars. They're not looking for durability like you and I. This leads to the dumbing down of most consumer goods,
If you want to buy something out of the ordinary, ie appeals to less people/not produced in as many numbers, then your share of the development cost will be higher. (ie you have to pay more)
You don't think a new F350 will go half a million?
Some insight below: enjoy those 2 vehicles while you can.
https://carkiller.com/scottykilmer/qa/why-toyota-lexus-honda/
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jmRG6vLaWIE
I do understand what you're saying, which is a protest against"planned obsolescence" as an American consumerist and corporate cultural predisposition. More deeply, as well, the older American notion of what used to be called "The Protestant Ethic," (thrift, deferred gratification, pride in one's work, etc.) by Max Weber, has almost entirely disappeared from the American mindset. You can thank, in no small part, the post WWI advertising industry (led by Ivy Lee and Freud's nephew, Edward Bernays, for that characteristic of American culture).
Another issue goes to the financialization of the culture, and the use of ubiquitous debt as a tool of social control. Keep buying, and we'll keep harnessing you (and the rest of us) to the debt machine. More money is made creating and servicing debt instruments, across the auto industry, than profits made from a direct sale.
More to the point, it also goes to the nature of much of American Corporate Culture.
Five days ago (and at a bit of length), I discussed the negative traits of American Corporate Culture, as it manifests in car production. That discussion is here: https://carkiller.com/scottykilmer/qa/why-toyota-lexus-honda/#post-79143
Low-quality goods from the domestic US car manufacturers goes back a long ways. 50+ years ago it was typical for cars to be delivered with defects, some of them serious. Sometimes parts would even be missing. It was actually expected and you just prayed that defects would be minor when you took delivery of your new ride and that the dealer would be able to quickly sort them out. That's one of the reasons that Japanese cars became so popular in the 1970s.
I was looking at new sedans just to see what's out there, and I've found the US ones are gone! Taurus & fusion, lacrosse and regal, impala, mkz, all going or gone. All that remain are the Cadillac CT's, the Malibu, Tesla s & 3, and the Charger(?). I just don't get it. The right sedan is more practical than a coupe, doesn't stick out for speed traps, can have great performance and handling, and look a lot sharper than hatches & suv's. Am I crazy? Or should I not worry about it since I'd probably give my business to mazda or honda anyway?
Fusions are going, but still out there. I got one 2 months ago for $11,000 off MSRP. American Sedans just aren't selling like they used to and car companies make more money selling you SUV's than cars.
The Chrysler 300 will likely be killed before too long, cutting back the sedan market even further. But don't worry - I believe electrifying everything will bring back sedans.
I just missed the old days in the Late 90's and 2000's when I was shopping for my fusion in Janruary - back when I could have chosen between a saturn, olds, pontiac, plymouth, mitsubishi (made in Normal IL), Chrysler, Dodge, chevy, lincoln, ford, or even mercury sedan. I know most of them were all the same rebadged vehicle, but I felt the squeeze when trying to buy a sedan that is union-approved!
It's wherever the market goes. SUV's and trucks are more popular than coupe or sedans atm. So because of this shift things are going to sell and whatever doesn't will be killed off or owned by a particular market. If you are going to give your money to honda or mazda I wouldn't worry at all lol
honestly good. you can get a honda accord v6, fun and reliable lol
At the end of a day it’s very tough to run a big corporation, glad I am not doing it! You have to make a lot of tough decisions that impact your bottom line and people under you. GM, Ford, FCA will do what they have to do to address their bottom lines, and thankfully we as consumers have choices (not perfect, but for the most part) to buy their products or not. Vote with your wallet.