I need an AWD vehicle around the $30K price range. After much research and a few suggestions, I have decided to get a 2021 Toyota RAV4. I was at the dealership last week and was about to start the paperwork, when someone walked over and said "Sorry, someone else just closed on the last RAV4 we have. We have the same model in a hybrid though." I said I'd think about it and walked out.
Now...my hesitance with hybrids is cost of repair long-term. I run my cars into the ground and I'm concerned that when things start needing to be replaced down the road, that the cost will be ridiculous. On the other hand, I've heard that the government is going to start making it very hard for companies to make anything other than hybrids at electrics in the near future.
What your guys' thoughts on hybrids?
Have you test driven one?
I rented a hybrid and I found it to be gutless. Highway driving was a struggle and the engine roared. At the end of the day, I wasn't impressed by the economy.
Depends on what kind of driving you do whether you'll ever make up the increased price in gas savings. (If you do a lot of stop-and-go driving, then perhaps. Many city taxicabs are hybrids.)
I'm not a fan of hybrids in general but Toyota's are the best and should be trouble-free for years. However if you keep cars a really long time (10 years or more) you may wind up needing some very expensive repairs when it gets old.
To Hybrid or Not To Hybrid, that is the question.
I personally like hybrids. At the same time, I don’t think a hybrid is for everyone. It may fit your needs, it may not.
I have a 2004 Toyota Prius, that has 299,999+ miles. It’s been an amazing vehicle. The battery did need to be changed at 275,000 miles.
Hybrids in general are a more complex system. There is an Internal Combustion Engine. There is an Electric Motor. There is an eCVT which figures out the power it is is getting from the ICE and/or Electric Motor to transfer to the wheels. There is the cooling systems, systems with an s, one for the ICE, one for the Electric Motor. And of course, there is the biggest concern, the hybrid battery (traction battery).
At the same time, with all the complexity, the vehicle is somewhat simplified. There is no stand alone starter. There is no stand alone alternator. The Electric Motor acts as both starter and the alternator. On top of all that, when the ICE is on, the energy generated never* gets wasted like when a traditional ICE car is sitting in idle. And on top of all that, the electric motor / eCVT help slow down the car when it regenerates electricity, also saving wear and tear on the actual brakes.
Drivetrain technology aside, the question returns to how much will one be spending on repairs and maintenance on the life of the vehicle, as compared to the ICE.
Here is a spreadsheet that attempts to give a good idea of the break even mileage. How many miles would one need to drive the car, given the price of the vehicles, the price of gas? (We can even add an expected maintenance cost as well).
Strangely enough, this spreadsheet is for the RAV4.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-bVho8e_wwS-9oU_et-SPaqGYyqXH0ZTX7-euJiKRCk/edit?usp=sharing
One tab just takes the averages of highway and city MPG. The other tab, provides 5 different scenarios as a mental exercise.
My general recommendation just guestimating (I haven’t delved too deeply) at the spreadsheet data, generally speaking, to get the best bang for your buck, either with a hybrid or ICE RAV4.
Get the ICE RAV4:
If you plan on owning the car for less than 100,000 miles.
If you plan on driving nearly 100% on the freeway.
If you only drive your car around 5,000 miles per year. (Hybrids don’t like to sit around, they need to be exercised.)
Get the Hybrid RAV4:
If you plan on owning the car for more than 100,000 miles.
If you plan on driving 100% city, 75% city, 50% city, 25% city.
If you drive a ton per year, especially stop and go traffic.
Get either:
If you plan on owning it more than 200,000 miles. (While you will save on gas, it may equal out in terms of changing the battery. Most of the Prius stories I hear seems to be able to get at least ~225,000 out of it. Some less mileage, most folks more.)
Now for the RAV4 Hybrid specifically, the fascinating thing I like about the RAV4 Hybrid versus the CRV Hybrid and the ICE RAV4 is this. The rear wheels in the AWD system are completely electric. There is no drive shaft. It run completely on electricity. In many ways, this simplifies the setup, and gives the car more control over when to spin up the rear wheels as needed.
The CRV Hybrid has a drive shaft which connects the Electric motor from the front of the car. While I do like Honda’s implementation of the hybrid system (which is practically drives like a full time EV), the AWD system gives me pause. In my mind, it makes more sense to take away the driveshaft.
And of course with ICE RAV4, you have to deal with transfer case and differential maintenance and all that good stuff.
Ultimately, when it comes down to it, give the RAV4 Hybrid a test drive and see if you like how it drives. I personally drive one frequently, and I think Toyota did a wonderful job balancing a hybrid drivetrain with the performance one would expect from a light duty SUV.
By the way, that fascinating electric rear drive setup for AWD was pioneered by Saab in a joint venture with e-AMM before the former went bankrupt. The system would have appeared in AWD Saabs nearly a decade ago had the company survived.
This is fascinating. Around what year was this SAAB innovation? Before or after the first Prius or Insight?
you need to work on your google-fu, Kaizen
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/saab-automobile-and-aam-form-new-technology-company-e-aam-driveline-systems-103694774.html
Kaizen, loved this post. Thank you so much.
@mountainmanjoe, thank you for the article reference. It was cool.
I would not buy one if I planned on keeping it forever. No way I would put myself is a position to get hit with a 6K repair 10 years down the road or similar
Since you run your vehicles into the ground, just stick with the regular gasoline powered RAV4 and call it a day. And plenty of mechanics will still be working on ICE cars even decades from now. Also, see below:
https://carkiller.com/scottykilmer/postid/76083/
BTW, in terms of the government. From now until 2035, car makers are basically forced by the government to meet certain fleet MPG and emissions standards. Some makes choose to go hybrid to meet that goal. Others try to milk every last ounce of performance from ICE engines with turbos and other tricks. By 2035, no more new ICE vehicles.
The government tried this back in the 90's too
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnership_for_a_New_Generation_of_Vehicles
The program was scrapped.
@kaizen, a lot can happen between now and 2035. None of it makes any sense and all it takes to derail those plans is a change in political direction. However if I'm still alive by 2035 I'll be too old to care and if still driving will stick with pure gasoline powered vehicles until the bitter end. I can 100% guarantee you that a hybrid or electric car will never grace my garage. Maybe I'll put in my will to be buried in one of my gas burners.
@MountainManJoe and @ChuckTobias. I totally hear you. Anything can happen. The future is t certain. All we have to go by is what is put in place right now, and it is anyone s guess if it will all pan out.
@Kaizen, indeed. We can't control the bigger picture. However, we can control our own part in it. For my part I'm simply not going to go along with the grand plan.
it's a pipe dream anyway. There's no way they can get that many people into electric cars without a massive, expensive ($quadrillions), and probably impossible overhaul to the power grid.
Politicians and greenies have never had a very firm grip on little things like objective reality.
The funny thing is, many electric car chargers put in the boonies are powered by a fossil fuel generator.
I say yes to a new hybrid
No to a used one like I made the mistake of buying 4 years ago before I understood the issue of aging hybrid batteries
Point of the hybrid is if you commute excessive miles per day in stop/go traffic. Otherwise I would stick with a standard ICE. Much less complex for long term life.
I agree with everyone's claim here. IMO, I would buy ICE RAV4 for long term ownership or the Hybrid RAV4 if you want good gas mileage and also not keeping it long term. I live in California and gas price average are almost $5 per gallon. Maybe, it will reach the $5 per gallon mark.
