Hi scotty. I hear you complain a lot about the engine dilution problems of some recent Hondas, and the CVT transmission issues of Jetco's in Nissans. I have also heard of the past automatic transmission issues of Honda in the past. But I don't hear you complain about the naturally aspirated engines, paired with a manual transmission as much. Nor have I heard you say that a naturally aspirated engine from Toyota will last longer than a NA engine of Honda or Nissan. I've heard you say Honda makes the best engines, but are you referring to performance or just pure longevity and reliability. It seems like when you say that, you are referring to performance. I am talking about pure longevity. If we take turbo chargers, cvt's, and automatics out of the equation - Can you rank these current economical new cars in order of which will last the longest. This question is aimed at someone who is looking for the most economical new car on the market today. All driven brand new of the lot. All properly maintenanced well. Taking all the variables out of the equation. I don't care about styling, or any fancy bells and whistles. Which NA engine, manual transmission duo will last the longest in order from first one to die, to last man standing. All driven the same way, all maintenanced well. The battle of the modern day econo cars. The cars on this last are all NA 4 cylinder japanense engines, with manual transmission. From watching your vides, you've stated that manual transmission are pretty much bulletproof, that's why I made them all manuals. They all have a starting base msrp of $20,000 or under.
Rank these current models, on which will last the longest?
1.) 2020 Honda civic NA engine; w/ manual transmission
2.) 2020 Toyota corolla NA engine; w/ manual transmission
3.) 2020 Honda fit NA engine; w/manual transmission
4.) 2020 Nissan sentra NA engine; w/manual transmission
5.) 2020 Nissan versa NA engine; w/ manual transmission
Really the race is between the Toyota and Honda. Realize with the Toyota, the manual transmission for the 2020 Corolla only comes on the 2.0L NA I4 (M20A-FKS) which is fairly new and part of Toyota’s Dynamic Force Engine lineup which came out in 2018 - no one knows how they will hold up long term. Meanwhile, the Honda Civic engine (K20C2) is based on Honda’s K-series engine and is more true and tried. That engine is also a unicorn these days in that the engine is only port injection (there is no GDI) - which is ideal - whereas the Toyota engine above has both port and direct engine (adds more complexity, although still better than a GDI-only engine which is found on the 2020 Honda Fit, but not as good as a port-injection only engine). If it were my money and I was choosing from the list above (based purely on longevity - still an educated guess) I would go: 2020 Honda Civic w/ Manual > 2020 Toyota Corolla w/ Manual > 2020 Honda Fit w/ Manual.
sadly, as far as the Toyota M20A, reliability ratings predict it'll last about 140k miles and I've seen them start to disintegrate at much lower mileages then that - but I do not know if that's only the first couple of model years or just how they're all built...
my scan tool's database says 220,000km but does not have information on it's common flaws yet.
Some of the feedback coming in on these Dynamic Force engines, too, is you have to be very diligent on engine oil changes even not going too much past every 5,000 miles - so less forgiving than older Toyota engines. Time will tell in real life how long the engines truly last, at least here in North America, but if it’s 140,000 miles - that is not good. That’s not the reason I would buy a Toyota. But there is no doubt both Toyota and Honda peaked in reliability (long term) years back. It’s a race to the bottom for everyone, but I will say Mazda is steadily rising (improving) in their reliability, right on the heels of Honda although their decision to use cylinder deactivation in their 2.5L naturally aspirated engines for 2018 model year (and beyond) was not a smart move, and no way to deactivate it (that I know of).
@DayWalker
As far as engine quality goes, if we look about a decade back, Mazda is in my opinion also on the way down.
My 2011 Volvo has a Mazda L-series, and those engines aren't powerful or fuel efficient but they were absolute bricks, It's not long ago that you just wouldn't have to worry at all about a Mazda engine as it would just work and not cause any issues.
The new SkyActive is a good engine, probably the best small-medium petrol engine you can buy, but it's still not as good as the old ones used to be.
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The funny thing is that other like PSA are on their way up... they went back to their old HDi diesels and those last 300,000 miles easily. Instead of making the whole engine cheaper, they just went from 16 values to 8 valves.
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Here's a gear video on that engine (with English subtitles)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPJf8p49KgQ?t=46
The 1.8L manual corolla would outlast all of these easily, as for the rest of the list:
But from this list, because the Toyota DynamicForce has proven to be not really that great. I've seen them loose compression at around 120,000 miles. It's a very questionable engine and I hope that Toyota will improve it.
The issue with Nissan is not the engine, it's the rest of the car. The Nissan MR engine I had it in '06 on a Nissan Qashqai and it was great. The same goes for the Nissan HR, these seem to last less but they're still adequate engines (these had an issue on the Juke with their timing chain but it was later resolved)
If the rest of the car would be anything close to the engine's quality, they'd be a worthy opponent but they're are not.
The 1.5L in the Honda Fit is the L-series EarthDreams and it has issues with oil delusion and in general that engine isn't built as well as you'd expect from Honda.
So this leaves us with the Civic 2.0, The K-series has been around since the early 2000s and It's an adequate engine. It doesn't have any big flaws that I'm aware of and the rest of the car is built really well.
The 1.5L naturally aspirated engine in the Fit has oil dilution issues? I know in general the Honda 1.5L turbocharged engines (and to a lesser extent the 2.0L turbocharged engines) had it, but the naturally aspirated 1.5L GDI engine has it too?
The 2020 Honda Jazz has a new modification of the 1.5L with the same compression ratio as the Civic although it’s still unclear as to what issues this one has
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It’s turned to have 10 horsepower less, information on this engine is scarce but the rumors are that this engine has the same oil dilution as the civic.
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I think that it will clear up in the next couple of years, Honda has called this new NA engine “EarthDreams” although that name is usually reserved mostly for turbocharged engines (the old L series was both sold as a 1.5L NA and as a 1.5L Turbo “EarthDreams”) and this one is as far as I know isn’t turbocharged.
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Confusing times…
Even for the top automakers (for reliability), you have to pick and choose wisely. It’s not enough to say all Toyota’s or all Honda’s and from all years are reliable - it’s a complicated minefield. To say I am a little disappointed here and there would be an understatement, but they both peaked in reliability years back.
That's crazy. I thought the oil dilution issues only existed with the 1.5 L turbos. I didn't know honda had the oil dilution issues in the 1.5 L NA engines. I didn't even know they had them on the 2.0L turbo charged engines. Losing compression at 140,00 miles is making me lose faith in the newer toyota DynamicForce engines. This question was originally intended to be a simply cut and dry type of question. But I can see that even within automakers, there are so many variables and complexities. Do automakers even make cars to last anymore, lol? Seems like I have to pay more attention to what series/ engine design it has as apposed to just assuming any Japanese engine that is not turbo charged is bulletproof. Seems like the 2.0L civic w/ a manual is pulling ahead though. Thanks for the feedback.
I wouldn’t lose sleep over the Dynamic Force Engine yet. Let’s wait a few years and see how they hold up. In general, it’s good to buy used vehicle from previous generation (or generations) after they have been put for at least 5-10 years so we can see how they held up. Also, it’s good to stick to true and tried power plants whenever possible. Of course, people have their reasons for not doing so. But, yeah, don’t assume because it is a Toyota or Honda that it will be flawless or a new generation that rolls out will last a long time like the older ones. Keep in mind there are some 30-/40-something other automakers here in North America and they are doing even worse than Toyota or Honda. So, as the saying goes, you can definitely do a lot worse than Toyota or Honda.
@DayWalker
I have previously stepped on a mine with Toyota. the '08 Corolla with the MMT. luckily I paid only $4k for it and I though it was a bargain.
That automated manual transmission was ment to compete with the excellent and sophisticated EGS6, but ended up being very odd to drive and it tends to burn its clutch way too early. This "Automatic" transmission doesn't even have any mechanism to prevent it from rolling back when starting of a hill.
@Kay123
in the US, Mazda makes pretty good new cars - those even with automatics seem to last quite a while. Defiantly the best new automatic transmissions.
The peak of car reliability was the 2012-2013 Corolla 1.6L with the 5 speed automatics. everything from there went kind of downhill.
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I agree with DayWalker, I'd wait another couple of years before drawing the verdict on the Dynamic Force as that's quite a new engine so maybe they're having quality issues just because we are very early in the production run.
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When Toyota first released their legendary ZR, the first couple of years were rough.
and in the case of Renault, it took them form '01 to '09 to perfect their 1.5 dCi engine (fuel systems failing, bushings getting worn out causing knocking and so on...) and later became to be a great engine if maintained correctly.
another example could be the THP engine from PSA and BMW that started off as a very weak engine (VVT systems were a nightmare, quality was all over the place, and people still stay away from 1.6L Peugeots) but with time it was improved and the new modifications actually seem to last quite a while if maintained correctly...
Stick with Toyota and Honda. Throw out the Nissans. You'll do fine with any of your options then.
