Or drag race and out pace hellcats.

yes the free market is great. The government manipulated market ... not so much.

Can't say the same, unless the us government is outright lying, Tesla's had (when I looked) around a 70% less fatality accident rate compared to the average us driver. Now part of this problem will be people rely far too much on self driving, but that's not going to be just Tesla when others make full self driving.

The US Government out right lying??? Shocking!

@Doc, oh no, tell me it isn't so!! {black}:scared:

They will tell you all day long it isn't so.

I for one dislike Apple as well. A lot of us also dislike the way that electric cars are being forced onto the marketplace by governments with the intention of forcing gasoline-powered cars out. Whether deserved or not Tesla is the poster boy for that for that misguided push for mass electrification.

A replacement for fossil fuels is needed, as we all know. But nobody is forcing you to buy an EV if you don't want to. One day there will be no more gasoline and THEN we will have to choose another option, just as when you have to choose a different food item if what you want has been discontinued. I'd like to see as much movement away from fossil fuel as possible myself, and I think Hydrogen will eventually win out. But I don't hate EV's as at least they give us an alternative that is, worst case, somewhat viable. The discussion of climate change/etc. is for another time and place, so not getting into that. But I still feel the hatred for Tesla is misplaced, and I do not like Elon at all personally...I think he's a nut.

A replacement for fossil fuels is not needed at all, not for a very long time. Predicting "running out of oil" has been going on since at least the 1950s if not before but the fact is that the world has fossil fuels to last centuries. So there is no need for a massive push at the present time. I certainly see no reason at all to move away from them. The normal pace of scientific progress will see see alternatives developed without forcing the issue.

Right now no one is forcing anyone to buy an electric car, but if one follows the news clearly governments have plans to do so. If electrics were really better there would be no reason to force the change, people would naturally gravitate to the better deal.

I won't be going along with the effort to rid the world of fossil fuels but I won't have to due to age. Fossil fuel use is so pervasive (our entire civilization runs on the stuff, not just cars) there is no way that they will be eliminated in my lifetime. The younger guys will have to deal with it.

Which is the problem. Us younger guys are having to sort a lot of stuff out that should have been done already. But it is what it is at this point.

no outrage here.
The hipster who buys a Tesla because he thinks it makes him a morally superior human being is equally pathetic to guy who buys a big truck to cover up his inadequacy, or the guy who buys a flashy sports car to compensate for his utter lack or personality. (and I'm not saying all people who buy those vehicles do it for the same reasons).

Peak oil turned out to be a lie and myth. Petroleum is here to stay. Climate catastrophe predictions turned out to be wrong, and yet people still blindly listen to the "experts". Following the party line doesn't make you any smarter than anybody else.

Musk isn't perfect, but I respect the man for investing his riches into interesting projects, rather than consolidating his wealth and power like many rich, boring, sociopathic assholes do.

I always go with science and data over any party. As far as I'm concerned, no politicians are looking out for the best interests of anyone but themselves. Problem is, it's the same with everyone else on Earth. Until we all finally set things aside and can have intelligent conversations based on scientific facts, things will continue to deteriorate. And because of how humans are, that will likely never happen which is why the Earth is so much better off without us here to mess it up.

Science is a tool, used by humans, not some magical truth. Just like a man can use a knife to cut you free from bonds, he can also use it to stab you in the back. Knowledge is not the same thing as truth.

Earth will be just fine, with or without us. It has been through a lot. Literally fire and brimstone. And it produced the only intelligent life that we know of. I'd say it's doing pretty OK.

It's true, earth will be fine with or without us, I mean it's survived asteroids, ice ages, continental drift, etc. Why would a few gasoline fumes affect it? Earth has been around 4 billion years, and it will aways produce life in some way. I'm not trying to be political, but people have been told for the last 50 years to feel guilty for living on this planet and using certain products made by the planet (Trees, gasoline, etc.) We don't need to go green or be more "efficient", and we don't need to save anything. The planet will eventually move on either way, even if we don't move with it. I'm not saying that you should be wasteful, just enjoy what the planet has to offer and don't worry about using too much of it. Electric cars may have been a good option 15 years ago, but it's not anymore, not the way they make these cars now. Gasoline, electric, and all other ways of powering vehicles should be able to co-exist with each other, we shouldn't be forced into having only one kind.

Science and data say that climactic changes are caused primarily by natural forces, for example the fact that we have been emerging from the Little Ice Age for over a century. Believing that human activity contributes much of anything to this process is like believing that breaking wind into a hurricane is going to have an effect.

Not going to get into it deeply here but I can only suggest interested parties look beyond the pronouncements of environmentalists who have given us over 50 years of failed doomsday predictions and have been caught time and time again fudging and misrepresenting data. As always in politics, when it comes to any kind of governmental interest follow the money and power.

As they used to say on The X-Files, which I happen to have on in the background at the moment, "The truth is out there." You just need to do a little digging to find it. (One place to start: look up what the father of modern climate science, the late Reid Bryson, had to say about the idea of human-caused global warming.)

Speaking of failed doomsday predictions by "environmental experts" and the media...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kGB5MMIAVA

Contemporary science can't reliably predict the weather next week. But politicians want to pass legistlation based on "models". They are based on what ... maybe a hundred years of weather records?

"We don't need to go green or be more 'efficient'"
I don't agree with this. Energy efficiency and minimizing impact are worthy goals in themselves, as is making the best use of limited resources we have.
But not at the cost of common sense and reliability, and certainly not under the false pretense of certain doom. I clean up my trash after myself. I turn the lights off when I'm not using them. I reuse my empty containers. These 'green' actions are sensible. But all too often, environmental campaigns end up having the opposite effect of what they promise. How much junk ends up in landfills because the effectiveness or lifespan of products was reduced to make them more 'green'.

I also find it fascinating that you captain planet @mod_man feed yourself from enabling people to burn egregious volumes of excess fossil fuels in those massive muscle and sport cars engines, purely for their frivolous personal pleasure.

"Captain Planet"? I haven't heard that in years. If that's supposed to be an insult, it isn't to me as that was a pretty sweet show back when I was a kid. {black}:cool: You know, whenever topics like these come up I realize that by posting my opinion, I open myself up to a bunch of hatred and vitriol from everyone here as my thoughts are severely in the minority here on the forum. I pretty much expect forum rules to be set aside for a moment while everyone unloads their attacks on me, personally and professionally, and I'm never disappointed in that. And since I have to respond to those kinds of insults with my hands tied behind my back, so to speak, I usually don't bother these days. This being no exception. All I'll say is I do what I have to in order to provide for my family. There are a lot of people, and I know some personally, who work jobs of various kinds for companies they don't believe in or downright hate because they have to get by. Sure I make a living selling, building, and modifying all kinds of muscle cars. But that's my profession. I also donate a lot of that money to climate change causes and other things that I believe in. I don't believe how I make my money is relevant to my personal beliefs as, unless you're a priest or similar, your profession doesn't represent you as a person. Now, feel free to tell me how wrong I am on that as well if you must. {black}:wink:

I don't think anyone here "hates" you, Mod, many of us just believe that you're wrong about some issues such as the causes of climate change and though you are certainly entitled to your opinion, we resent that people harboring such beliefs are forcibly imposing them on the rest of us via governmental legislation and regulation. (On the other hand I think it's great that you work with muscle cars and exotics. Wish I had that skill set!)

The thing is that you can no more fight the natural process of climate change than you can "fight" the sun rising in the morning or "fight" the motions of the planets. I was an environmental major back in the day and have watched 50 years of false crises promoted by these people come and go so I am extremely skeptical about their claims. That skepticism is backed up by science and data. (I used to be one of those guys in the early environmental movement so I know their tricks. You can't kid a kidder.)

Nothing we do is going to stop the climate from changing - not electric cars, not LED lights, not solar panels, not windmills. None of it is going to make a material difference in the face of the forces of nature. The only effect this "fight" will have is to cause economic destruction and hardship. That's why so many of us are against it. Currently the climate is returning to the way it was before the Little Ice Age and nothing is going to stop it.

Exactly, no one here is hating on you, you have the right to your opinion like the rest of us too. I Just don't like the way the government and the media has told us for the last 50 years to feel guilty for all kinds of things we don't need to feel guilty for, after all this planet created us, shouldn't we have every right to use its resources it constantly produces?

Chuck Tobias - Thumbs up, Mod_Man - Thumbs down. What do you mean Mod_Man "as we all know?" I'll bet you assume that everyone on the planet has a smart phone too.

Relax, mister mod_man. I was just having a bit of fun.

I think it's important to talk about these things in an open minded and honest way, and without prejudice. I simply wanted to explain my point of view, and I think that all of us have something we can learn from one another. I think understanding each other better, and sharing what motivates us, helps bring people together. There was no vitriol intended, implicit or otherwise.

I think it's actually really cool what you do. In fact, I confess I'm a bit envious about how much fun you must have. It seemed a bit at odds with the principles you hold, which I remarked on, and you're absolutely right that for many of us employment presents moral dilemmas that we something have to swallow. Some industries I've been involved in, for instance, produce a tremendous amount of frivolous waste. I found it disheartening how so much of what gets thrown away could be put to good use. I also realized it's only the tip of the iceberg, and consumption is what makes the world go around. We still have a long ways to go as a species.

Anyhow, I have absolutely no interest in attacking or insulting you. Your opinions are always welcome. I realise that I may seem a bit blunt, but that's just the way I am. Brutal honesty is the best policy. I think people I care about deserve nothing less. If I didn't, then I'll just starting telling your whatever you want the hear (even though I really dislike doing that). At the very least, you know what to expect from me 🙂

@mountainmanjoe, @Chuck Tobias, @Mod_Man This is a longest argument in my freaking life. I would say that try to be resourceful as well as having the fundamentals to enjoy yourself. I don't care about politics, but I choose any type of president who is good at certain factors. As for Tesla, no one cares and all I see is flexing their cars. Plus the model Y and 3 looks a frog.

The only reason to care is that people in power are trying to nudge or outright force all of us into the electric car boondoggle.

Amen.

Can't agree with you there chuck, it's a political side. They're going to say whatever that pleases that sides audience, unless you're on that side all you're doing is getting angry at people's ignorance. I'm not buying an electric car till both my next car gets totaled and they make reliable solid state batteries. Look at Chevy, that's your life in there. You want to risk your life charging a car in a garage?
Now I can't predict what these companies are telling the truth or lying about but IF solid state batteries are safer I'll definitely buy an electric car for my daily driver and a performance car as my vacation car

Well, @lockinhind, various governments already have their bans for new gasoline cars in place and more will likely follow like lemmings. Unless they back down they are going to force new car buyers into electric cars.

For myself I don't expect I'll ever buy an electric car no matter how good they may become for the simple reason that I'm cheap and I buy old used cars, usually 15-20 years old, and drive them until the wheels fall off. By the time there are good, functional, and inexpensive 15-20 year old electric cars to buy used I'll be pushing up daisies.

What government has outright banned new gasoline cars? I live in America and I never heard of a new gasoline car ban anywhere in the world. Now gas guzzlers banned in California yeah but honestly why do you need a suv or truck getting 10 mpg?

The bans have been announced by various foreign governments but have not taken effect yet, they are typically set for around 2030. In the U.S. the federal government has not announced a ban but California has. An internet search will give you the details. So if nothing changes, within 10 years in many places you will simply not be able to buy a new gasoline-powered vehicle. Some politicians have announced they want a ban on ALL gasoline-powered cars by 2040.

The only outright ban in a country is Norway, that's it, there has been restrictions but not bans, also California isn't a country it's a state. If you want anew car and live in California an easy loophole is to buy it in another state and drive it back to California.

As I said the outright bans have not taken effect yet, but they have been announced to take place for the most part in or around 2030. You seem to be dancing around the easily demonstrable fact that governments around the world are intent on forcing new car buyers into electric cars. As a result many manufacturers have reduced or halted development of gasoline engines. In the U.S. it is not just California, which is a huge and influential market in and of itself, but 12 others states that adhere to its "zero-emission" (sic) vehicle policy. (Historically, California emissions policy ultimately becomes national policy but it remains to be seen.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles

@lockinhind you really ought to pay more attention

Canada moves to ban new combustion-engine cars by 2035
https://driving.ca/column/motor-mouth/motor-mouth-canada-moves-to-ban-internal-combustion-engines-by-2035

The UK moves up deadline to ban the sale of combustion-engine vehicles - The ban begins in 2030
https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/17/21572312/uk-ban-combustion-engine-vehicles-sale-electric-cars

EU proposes phasing out new internal combustion cars by 2035
https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/14/22576994/european-union-gas-vehicle-ice-ban-2035-electric-cars

Copenhagen mayor Frank Jensen wants the city to end all new diesel cars starting next year.

Paris, Madrid, Athens and Mexico City said they would remove diesel cars and vans by 2025 (in Europe diesel is the primary fuel) and phase out all combustion-engine cars by 2030. The French government’s 2017 Climate Plan, pledges to “take greenhouse gas-emitting vehicles off the market by 2040:

Rome: Mayor Virginia Raggi announced a plan to ban diesel cars from city center by 2024

Norway will phase out conventional cars by 2025, followed by by France and the United Kingdom in 2040 and 2050, respectively

Ireland: The country will ban sales of all gasoline and diesel vehicles by 2030.

Energy Minister Yuval Steinitz told a conference last February that “from 2030 onwards, the State of Israel will create alternatives and will no longer allow the import of cars that run on gasoline and diesel fuel.

The government of Brussels agreed to introduce a diesel ban in Belgium’s capital by 2030.

In 2017, the Indian government announced the “ambition, that by 2030, all vehicles sold in India may be electric-powered.”

This is a weird one .. Taiwan: The country’s Environmental Protection Administration plan would ban all sales of nonelectric motorcycles and four-wheel vehicles by 2035 and 2040, respectively.

It's a pretty clear signal by governments what their intentions are. It's also very interesting considering that all the emissions of all these countries put together pale in comparison with the emissions produced by one country alone: China. And nobody seems to care what they do. In fact, we give them more money every day to produce the garbage we buy from them to stick in our landfills.

1. Teslas have probably more computer modules than any other kind of vehicle. In my experience, this is the most unreliable aspect of all modern vehicles.

2. most people perhaps. But not me.

3. I don't think I'll ever be relaxed while a machine hurtles my soft, fragile, sack of guts at any appreciable velocity down a road shared with so many mentally deranged people. Even when I ride public transit I always have one eye on my course.

4. you would be surprised how many people don't have a power outlet where they park.

About 30-40% of the us population. That's just estimated based on people renting but yeah I'm aware. I personally wouldn't mind but others will it's a case by case basis. Now that being said I do think the gas guzzlers have had their time. Where I live I can't even roll my window down without some A**hole driving past on full throttle pumping more exhaust at me.