Which vehicle in the title (and poll) should I get? I plan to keep the vehicle for as long as possible and put as much mileage on it. Which is better to own in the long run?
.
Talk me into or out of owning either one.
.
There are base don the same platform. Normally I would say Camry, to save some $$$, but I like the way the ES looks better.
They're both excellent vehicles. The obvious difference is that the Lexus ES is just a luxurious version of the Toyota Avalon and the Camry is just a regular mid size car with a bulletproof V6 just like the Lexus you're wanting to get. If you like luxury, get the Lexus. If you like saving a chunk of money but still want good reliability then the Camry would be your best bet.
I believe the es is the same size as the Camry and the GS and LS are Avalon sized
The ES in the older days were based on the Camry. The ES has been based on the Avalon since it's sixth generation onwards. You can search up the sizes of those GS and LS models and see what size they actually are.
They're both basically the same the Lexus will probably be more expensive and some of the parts will be more expensive so I personally would probably go for the Camry
If you can afford both, the Lexus obviously.
TLDR: If you're sure you want to go for a V6 Toyota sedan, then I think adding $6k and getting a Lexus badge and a more refined experience would make sense. Although there are other options with 4 cylinders that are significantly better value.
Those are very similar cars, with the main difference being "luxuriousness".
If you like the design and interior in the Lexus, it might be worth the extra $5,945 grand.
On top of the extra $5,125 for the XSE V6 on the Camry over a regular XSE,
that's in addition to the extra $5,300 compared to the LE.
So $16,370 over a Camry LE, without even talking about options on the ES350, which on luxury cars are an issue (since things like pretty interiors all require buying overpriced "premium packs" and what not - after options, shipping, etc. It may even be be a whole Corolla over the MSRP of a Camry LE, maybe even the price of two Camrys.)
So IMO main issue of the ES350 imo is the lack of value, it's $15k more than a decently equipped brand new Camry - it's even more than the more practical Lexus NX that shares a powertrain with the RAV4...
On the topic of luxury cars, Personally, after owning Volvos and other luxury vehicles I began to dislike them.
IMO they have too many compromises compared to even something like a value oriented crossover, so I'd also consider the Corolla Cross, it's around half the price of a somewhat decently equipped ES350.
Personally when I buying my latest car, I've looked at luxury cars (such as the XC40), large cars, and many others, and settled on a cheap crossover cause they've gotten really good in the last 3-4 years, really not that far behind luxury cars.
Although this is a really minor issue, It's worth mentioning that a drawback of all current Toyotas (although I think that on the new 2023 Prius it is possible since it has finally got Safety Sense 3.0) is that LTA can not be decoupled from radar cruise and that's a huge shame.
Dan,
The two vehicles I am looking at are brand new 2024 Toyota Camry XSE for around $38,000 vs. 2024 Lexus ES350 Fsport Handling for $54,000. Is the $16,000 difference worth it? I want to keep the vehicle forever (run wheels into the ground).
Hi @DayWalker ,
It depends on if the Lexus badge and a nicer design is worth it to you - honestly it might be.
$16k is loads of money not that much less than a perfectly good base model Corolla.
-
BTW,
What about the ±$44k (msrp.) Lexus IS350 "F-Sport Design" with the same V6?
(Lexus have refreshed it in 2020 but although it has the same width it's 7.5 inches shorter. It's less common than the ES, but nether the less they sell lots of them.)
Also, are you sure you want a sedan in 2023?
-
All of these have the same 8 speed that seems to be quite... questionable.
I remember already seeing at least 2 posts of it failing on Camrys at around 60k-100k miles.
After the warranty period, consider installing and additional transmission cooler.
The IS350 Fsport is nice but a little tight inside. Also, the one I built (with options I would be interested in) comes to $51,000. Supposedly the tires prematurely wear out (inner tire wear) on the IS which scared me off. I also wanted my total cost of ownership in the long run to be less so figured FWD configuration better for that than RWD.
.
I am a sedan/hatch/wagon guy all day long versus CUV/SUV. I wish Lexus made a wagon or a sedan with a lift back.
51 grand is pretty insane for a midsize sedan.
Considering a Camry starts at around mid-20s.
-
On the topic of IS tire wear, yep seems like they do wear out their front tires quite early due to poor design on Toyota's part...
And although the IS tire situation is really bad - y'know lifetime total cost of ownership on a fuel guzzling V6 luxury sedan is going to be very high regardless, it's not a Corolla hybrid by any stretch of the imagination...
-
Also, yep, I'm also a wagon guy.
I loved my Ford Focus wagon - It showed me what a "Life-style vehicle" truly is about.
The large boxy body with tons of space for everyone, an absolutely ludicrous boot, and still having tight handling was incredible.
https://imgur.com/a/iKQpxaL
After owning that car sedans (even large ones) just felt incredibly limiting.
-
Sadly Lexus doesn't sell their hatchbacks and stations wagons on the US market.
(Lexus CT)
(Lexus LBX)
-
BUT!
Although Lexus UX is called a "crossover" - it's just nothing more than a wagon.
It has only only 6.3 inches of ground clearance, it uses the Toyota Corolla platform, and it's lower than the outgoing CH-R...
-
Crossovers like the Lexus UX are just wagons with a bodykit.
My "Crossover" is pretty much just a slightly longer hot-hatch with just 0.7 inches more ground clearance than the sedan variant...
Same for my other crossover, they just added 0.9 inches to the sedan and called it a "crossover"
-
So yeah, most crossovers are just wagons... (boxy sedans with slightly improved ground clearance)
I prefer to be closer to the ground so sedan will have to do for me. The UX - one gripe I have - is the lackluster powertrain as well as it’s now offered as a hybrid only.
.
I also noticed the Camry XSE V6 (including even the XLE) have panoramic sunroof - it’s standard - but those have had issues and for me wanting to own long term I prefer a regular old moonroof or nothing. I don’t need a fancy panoramic sunroof even though it may be cool. I’d have to step down to the 4-cylinder version to avoid it OR get the Camry TRD but it looks too boy-racer for me. I want the more potent engine (V6) but the panoramic sunroof is a deal breaker. Looks like I’d have to skip the Camry now.
.
Hey, what do you think of the new Acura Integra Type S compared to the Lexus ES350? About similar price (maybe $2,000 cheaper than the ES the way I built mine). But, for long term usage like I intend which is better?
I do not think that the UX's powertrain is much of a draw back - 180 horsepower at 42 mpg combined is pretty solid.
(And until the battery fails of old age, the rest of the car is likely to be more reliable)
-
It's also worth mentioning that no matter how low to the ground a Toyota is, it's probably gonna handle like crap...
The Camry outright fails the moose test (even entering at just 74kmh it still wasn't able to pass consistently)
https://youtu.be/51Q39n7nR1w?t=45s
So that low to the ground Toyota handles significantly worse than a large and high CX-5 (consistently passes the test successfully at the required 77kmh)
https://youtu.be/H1FIPXeU7J0?t=13
same for most large decent SUVs
https://youtu.be/x_H4zhjLe60?t=13
-
And that's less than the best in class like the larger Monjaro (not offered in the US yet).
https://youtu.be/-SgkkOyvZD0?t=11
-
I doubt whether the Lexus badge and the better suspension will do much, as the Civic type R performed almost exactly as bad as the Civic.
Funnily enough the RAV4 based Lexus NX (an SUV with 7.7 inches of ground clearance) is a better handling car than the Camry.
https://youtu.be/xkOptj98Hs8?t=62
-
Also, the ES has gotten a not great adult occupant safety score in the 2018 EuroNCAP safety test (91% by 2018 standards - that's tiny sub-compacts and economy cars, for reference the Mazda3 got 98%, the CX-5 95%, etc.)
And the Toyota Camry opted-out of testing, probably due it's sale being delayed and the updated EuroNCAP test released at that time may have been too high and demanding to get 5 stars (many mass market European cars have been failing to pass the new standards with 5 stars)
-
I wouldn't worry about the sun roof too much, I have it on my car and it's pretty awesome.
I know they can crack, but that depends on the car's design - for example it has been an issue on the previous gen Nissan Rogue Sport.
-
I wouldn't go for the Integra, As I see it, It's a really bad deal - that's a lot of money for a turbocharged Civic.
I do not know how the 2.0 Turbo will hold up, and I'm not sure having a manual is a bonus...
(I also do not like build quality so far, the liftback is really not looking great - looks like an early Tesla with those gaps)
And let's not forget the Integra is based on the Civic, you can drop the turbo and get a naturally aspirated 2.0L in the Civic hatch (but note that the liftback is built in the US, and the Sedan is in Canada)
I think the Integra is overpriced garbage.
-
I really do not know what to advise, the midsize V6 sedan market is not great.
-
Also note that the Camry was discontinued in Japan (apparently it was built in a city called "Toyota")
(apparently as it's to be replaced with the Lexus RX in that price segment)
So both the Lexus ES and Camry are likely to be made in the US.