Hey Scotty I was looking into buying a new Toyota RAV4 Hybrid as a gas saver because I want to have something that has plenty of room but also gets tremendous gas mileage and will last a really long time. What's your take on this specific vehicle?
what is your proportion of city miles versus highway miles?
About 120 miles or more on the interstate to and from work per day for 4 to 6 days a week vs about 30 miles to the nearest city and back home once a week.
About 120 miles or more on the interstate to and from work per day for 4 to 6 days a week vs about 30 miles to the nearest city and back home once a week
the strength of hyrids is city driving. They're really not suited for the highway. The difference in highway economy is insignificant compared to the price on the sticker, and long term maintenance.
I also find hybrids to be gutless and loud on the highway.
If you're planning to keep the RAV4 a very long time (like more than 10 years) the hybrid is more likely to require expensive repairs.
About 120 miles or more on the interstate to and from work per day
Considering I burn through a tank of gas per day
Your car gets 4 mpg? 😐
it usually takes $100 or more to fill up my tank
You have the numbers. Do the math ...
Sounds like you do roughly 600 mi per week
Rav4 (32mpg) = 19 gal = $64
Rav4 hybrid (38mpg) = 16 gal = $54
The hybrid saves you $10 per week.
The hybrid model costs $2,500 more, so it would take you 250 weeks to just break even (5 years). Only after that do you actually start saving any money. 💡 (assuming none of the expensive components break).
So first of all if you want a hybrid car then definitely Toyota over any other brand because they know how to make good hybrids. But if wanting to keep for a long time then hybrid won't be the best choice because it's more complex and also you would to change the battery at some point so it would be more expensive to repair. In general if you do a lot of stop and go traffic driving (like those uber drivers that drive mostly Prius) and you drive enough to justify the price difference between gasoline only and hybrid (how much you save in gas cost) then get the hybrid, otherwise just go with the gasoline only version.
To Hybrid or Not To Hybrid
I personally like hybrids. At the same time, I don’t think a hybrid is for everyone. It may fit your needs, it may not.
I have a 2004 Toyota Prius, that has 299,999+ miles. It’s been an amazing vehicle. The battery did need to be changed at 275,000 miles.
Hybrids in general are a more complex system. There is an Internal Combustion Engine. There is an Electric Motor. There is an eCVT which figures out the power it is is getting from the ICE and/or Electric Motor to transfer to the wheels. There is the cooling systems, systems with an s, one for the ICE, one for the Electric Motor. And of course, there is the biggest concern, the hybrid battery (traction battery).
At the same time, with all the complexity, the vehicle is somewhat simplified. There is no stand alone starter. There is no stand alone alternator. The Electric Motor acts as both starter and the alternator. On top of all that, when the ICE is on, the energy generated never* gets wasted like when a traditional ICE car is sitting in idle. And on top of all that, the electric motor / eCVT help slow down the car when it regenerates electricity, also saving wear and tear on the actual brakes.
Drivetrain technology aside, the question returns to how much will one be spending on repairs and maintenance on the life of the vehicle, as compared to the ICE.
Here is a spreadsheet that attempts to give a good idea of the break even mileage. How many miles would one need to drive the car, given the price of the vehicles, the price of gas? (We can even add an expected maintenance cost as well).
Strangely enough, this spreadsheet is for the RAV4.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-bVho8e_wwS-9oU_et-SPaqGYyqXH0ZTX7-euJiKRCk/edit?usp=sharing
One tab just takes the averages of highway and city MPG. The other tab, provides 5 different scenarios as a mental exercise.
My general recommendation just guestimating (I haven’t delved too deeply) at the spreadsheet data, generally speaking, to get the best bang for your buck, either with a hybrid or ICE RAV4.
Get the ICE RAV4:
If you plan on owning the car for less than 100,000 miles.
If you plan on driving nearly 100% on the freeway.
If you only drive your car around 5,000 miles per year. (Hybrids don’t like to sit around, they need to be exercised.)
Get the Hybrid RAV4:
If you plan on owning the car for more than 100,000 miles.
If you plan on driving 100% city, 75% city, 50% city, 25% city.
If you drive a ton per year, especially stop and go traffic.
Get either:
If you plan on owning it more than 200,000 miles. While you will save on gas, it may equal out in terms of changing the battery. Most of the Prius stories I hear seems to be able to get at least ~225,000 out of it. Some less mileage, most folks more.
Ultimately, when it comes down to it, give the RAV4 Hybrid a test drive and see if you like how it drives. I personally drive one frequently, and I think Toyota did a wonderful job balancing a hybrid drivetrain with the performance one would expect from a light duty SUV.
BTW, in terms of the government. From now until 2035, car makers are basically forced by the government to meet certain fleet MPG and emissions standards. Some makes choose to go hybrid to meet that goal. Others try to milk every last ounce of performance from ICE engines with turbos and other tricks. By 2035, no more new ICE vehicles.
how much did your battery cost?
I got a refurbished rebalanced one for $1500, installed.
I was about to get a new one for $1900. But it was at the first few months of the pandemic, and prices shot up to $4000 for brand new. This is just parts, not labor. And new ones are only available at the dealer.
If someone had the technical know how and the inclination, the battery could be rebalanced at home with your own elbow grease, for a few hundred bucks. It just takes some time, like a few days to a week, to cycle through each module.
I couldn’t have the car out of commission
Considering I burn through a tank of gas per day and it usually takes $100 or more to fill up my tank in today's economy I think I'll road test the RAV4 Hybrid first and see how I like it.
One option may be to rent a RAV4, RAV4 Hybrid, and Prius, for a week a piece. And test the actual conditions of how you drive and the roads you drive on. See which one gives you actual you the best gas mileage.
The advantage the Prius has is that it has less drag coefficient than the RAV4’s, resulting in better gas mileage.
@Kaizen, 2035 is a long ways away. All it will take to do away with the 2035 ICE deadline is to vote in politicians who see reality rather than being slaves to dogma. (A somewhat difficult proposition, I admit.)
I concur.
IMHO, the deadline is silly to have. Let the market figure it out.