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Trouble starting when warm

  

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Topic starter

Scotty and Team,

I've got a 1994 Nissan D21 Hardbody, 2.4, 4x4 Manual Starter Issue, it was my grandpas truck, all original with 72K miles, near perfect condition.  Whenever the vehicle is starting cold, I have no issues.  However, if I drive the car turn it off, and then try to start it, it won't start.  There is no click, no sound, nothing.  I push start it, get it home, and then the next day, once cold, it starts no problem again.  

I am think I should replace the starter, but I have also heard there is a neutral position sensor and or a clutch petal sensor which could also cause this issue.  

Thanks for all your help.  

Juice

 

 


7 Answers
3

Yours is a manual transmission so you have a "clutch interlock switch" at the clutch pedal and an "interlock relay".

Here's how the circuit is wired (I highlighted it Red for Power and Green for Ground):

So the 1st thing that stands out is that your ignition switch is providing Power to the Load Side of the Interlock relay and then to the starter solenoid. These days they only use the ignition switch on the control side of a "starter relay". That makes your ignition switch suspect.

The way you start your truck is you push down the clutch pedal. When you do that you close the contacts on the Clutch Interlock Switch which provides a Ground to the Control Side (magnetic coil) in the Interlock Relay.

Then when you turn the key to the Start Position, Power is provided to both the Load side and the Control Side of the Interlock Relay. The Control Side of the relay is energized and the contact on the Load Side closes sending Power to the Starter Solenoid.

And if you trace the components involved in getting the starter to spin, starting at the lower left of the diagram it goes, Battery, Fusible Link, Ignition Switch, Interlock Relay, Clutch Interlock Switch, Starter Solenoid, Starter Motor.

Maybe troubleshoot this at the Interlock Relay Connector because you can rule out everything including a bad starter. 

You have the 2.4L so the Relay is located here:

 

The relay looks like this and its socket looks like this:

 

The Larger side is the Load Side and the Smaller side is the Control side.

So do this test on a Cold Start when it always starts.

Grab a test light. Attach the alligator clip to the Negative battery post. Have a helper turn and hold the key on Start and probe the contacts on the relay connector.

One on the larger side and one on the smaller side will make the test light illuminate.

Now, switch the test light's alligator clip to the Positive battery post.

Have your helper depress the clutch pedal as you probe the other contact on the smaller side of the connector. The test light should light up.

The next time it wont crank repeat this test and see if anything isn't lighting the test light.

Also, now that you know what 3 of the 4 relay contacts do, (specifically which relay socket on the Load Side gets Power from the ignition switch) by the process of elimination you know that the other relay contact on the Load Side goes to the starter solenoid.

You could grab a piece of wire (maybe 12 gauge, nothing too wimpy) and attach it to the battery positive post and stick it into that other Load Side relay socket contact  (make sure you're in neutral so you don't run yourself over)  and see if the starter spins during a "No CranK".

If it doesn't spin then it's probably the starter.

 

There's one more thing I found interesting when looking at your wiring diagram and it has absolutely nothing to do with your problem.

If you look at the wiring diagram, just to the Left of the Clutch Interlock Switch there's an Interlock Emergency Relay and if you follow the wiring down to the lower Right of the diagram there's an Interlock Emergency Switch. 

Pretty cool and designed for serious 4X4 guys. I guess if they find themselves on the edge of a cliff and they stall out. They have 3 pedals,, gas, brake, and clutch, to control but only 2 feet and they can't control all 3 at once.

It looks like there's an Interlock button on the dash and when you press it, it removes the Clutch Interlock Switch from the Starter Circuit.

Here's what I found out about that:

4x4 clutch interlock switch:

The engine cannot be started unless the clutch pedal is fully depressed. However, 4-wheel drive models are equipped with an interlock cancel switch that allows for starting the engine without depressing the clutch pedal. This feature helps you restart the engine if it stops off-road under difficult circumstances (for example, the engine stops on a steep hill and a slight movement forward or backwards might be dangerous).

Suggested operation:
1. set the parking brake
2. depress the brake pedal with your right foot.
3. place gear shift in 1 to move forward or r to move backward
4. place your left foot on the brake pedal and release the parking brake
5 turn the ignition switch to on
6 press and release interlock switch
7 start engine and press accelerator as truck moves take your foot off the brakes
once the engine has started the emergency interlock relay will turn off. Do not use switch under normal driving conditions.

How cool is that?

 


Holy Crap… I feel like my Nissan Hard body just got assessed by NASA scientist—- I’ll give the above a shot and let you know!!! Thanks


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It could be the neutral safety switch, the ignition switch or the starter itself. Because you said it doesn't work when it's warmed up, I'd bet on a bad starter or maybe even a starter relay. 


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Topic starter

Thanks I’ll give it shot 


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It's least likely that it's the neutral safety switch.  My bet is on the starter, or related component.  

It almost sounds like "hot soaking" the starter, but you should at least hear a click if that was the case, usually.  

Rather than guessing, you can check several voltages when this happens.  

Start with decently charged battery.  While cranking check voltages at :

  • Battery voltage on the posts, if possible--should be no less than 9.5V
  • Power connection at the starter: on the post, then the cable end if possible--should be no less than 9.5V
  • Voltage at the starter solenoid connection--same as batt voltage

ideally you want 12.7V on the battery . Especially after just having shut off the engine.
9.5V would indicate that it's not charging.


I meant while cranking, no less than 9.5V. But yes, static voltage should be about 12.7V or so.


right you are. I missed that part.


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Topic starter

I’ll get out my volt meter and try that as well— the batter was recently replaced— but it was at a Walmart so all bets are off:)


Please make sure you're measuring while cranking, or trying to crank the engine.

One thing to note: since you have a new battery and since there is no clicking sound of the solenoid trying to engage the starter, that's where I would concentrate on. It's either not getting the voltage, or the solenoid is not responding to the voltage applied to it. If it's the latter, the solenoid may be starting to go out.


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Topic starter

So today, before I got my volt meter out— I tried a few more things.  Cold it cranked right up;  so I turned it off and on about 4 times.  No issues.  Then I drove and hour and turned it off.  And it wouldn’t turn on.  I waited 3 hours, and it turned right over 


didn't we know that already?


Kinda , but if it were a battery issue, or electric issue to the starter, repeat start and stopping when cold should highlight weak current to the starter…
Either way yes.
I’ll be changing the starter this week.


I would try Jack's advice first before shelling out for new parts


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Topic starter

Well, after trying a lot of different things… I found the answer!  It was an intermittently faulty ignition switch.  Changed it and it works 100% now.  Thanks for the help 


Hey Juice...you said "ignition switch" was intermittently faulty? Not ignition KEY switch right?. Because I found my similiar problem to be a broken ground wire feed off the cam and crankshaft sensors. Question...did you find a bad ground wire when you replaced the ignition switch under the dash?


@bluegill, The original post is from last November and he hasn't posted anything since February. It's pretty unlikely you'll be getting an answer.


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