Hey Scotty, I'm just trying to learn in general so my car doesn't really matter cause I'm not trying to fix her with this today. But she's a 2002 Cobra if it matters.
I was told that in older cars you could adjust the engine timing by turning the distributor. But he told me it works different in newer cars. (Doesn't know how. Can't help me with that. )
How new? Are we talking older than 1990? A lot seems to fall on that year, just guessing cause I don't know.
Most importantly though, what's the equivalent in newer cars? What did car manufacturers switch to having people do in that method's place? And why, but only if ya feel like it.
I don't need to do it to my car but I think the answer has the potential to help a friend. But that's the strain of stuff I'm trying to learn about and searching isn't helping cause I barely know what to ask. I'm just getting stuff that's not what I'm trying to find.
Thanks a million in advance.
I was told that in older cars you could adjust the engine timing by turning the distributor. But he told me it works different in newer cars. (Doesn't know how. Can't help me with that. )
It depends on the car. The computer controls ignition timing on modern cars and is not adjustable with the stock electronics. Even some cars with distributors have computer-controlled ignition timing to one extent or another - either completely and not adjustable (like my 1999 Jeep Cherokee), or the computer controls the timing curve after base timing is set manually (my 1986 Saab 900, also mid-1980s AMC Eagles I used to own.)
So there is no firm demarcation line between "older cars" where the computer plays no part in setting or controlling ignition timing and "newer cars" where it "works different". It's just not that simple. You need to consult the shop manual for the car you're looking at to make that determination unless you're working with something really old (for example 1960s vintage) where you know for a fact there is no computer control at all.
@chucktobias How do you fellas do that thing where you make the little gray box appear with what I said?
Thank you. So essentially I'm going to have to go by Make if I wanna see how different brands started to evolve the technology. Are you saying it's also going to vary between engines - like V6 vs V8 and etc.? I make notebooks on car study and this is the special interest of the moment it seems. Everyone's answers help a lot.
Yeah the man that was giving me advice in the first place was mostly referencing his 60s-70s cars, that's why I asked. Which obviously tech is going to change a lot vs 2000s vehicles. I was hoping it was that simple but didn't think it was.
Computer control of ignition started to come in around the early 1980s, in the form of distributors where initial timing was set manually and the computer took over from there. Later it went to distributors where the computer handled everything, then to various distibutorless designs. The technology used might or might not vary between engines of a particular manufacturer, you have to consult a shop manual for the vehicle you're dealing with.
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The other change was from points to electronic ignition. It was optional on a few cars in the 1960s. However, mass adoption making it standard took place during the 1970s, starting with Chrysler in the U.S (1972). The rest of the U.S. makes went to electronic ignition in 1975. Some foreign jobs kept points into the late 1970s. Probably the best electronic system of that era was GM's HEI (High Energy Ignition) which is still popular today for upgrades and customization of older cars.
But he told me it works different in newer cars.
Ignition timing has evolved over the years. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_system)
From contact points to distributors to computer control, with various transitions in between, so every car can be a little different.
Yours is described in the service manual: (which we've directed you to before)
https://charm.li/Ford/2002/Mustang%20GT%20V8-4.6L%20SOHC%20VIN%20X/Repair%20and%20Diagnosis/#Powertrain%20Management/Ignition%20System/Description%20and%20Operation/
it's distributor-less, and completely controlled by the computer using engine sensors. There is no user adjustment.
How new? Are we talking older than 1990?
it varies by manufacturer and model. I don't know when Mustangs were updated. Maybe @justin-shepherd can enlighten us.
Distributors are mostly a 20th century technology.
what's the equivalent in newer cars?
The computer has high resolution rotational sensors on the crank and camshafts, so it knows what the engine is doing at all times. It's easy for it to calculate when to fire the spark plugs, not to mention perform all kinds of compensations for changing driving conditions. Solid state electronics have replaced mechanical switching like distributors because they're more reliable. High voltage arcs (like you have in a distributor) erode away the metal in the electrical contacts every time they fire, so they wear down over time. Corrosion, UV radiation, mechanical wear and heat also degrade distributors.
What did car manufacturers switch to having people do in that method's place?
Manufacturers took the driver out of the equation. Engines don't lose timing any more, unless there are more serious underlying issues like twisted camshafts.
@imperator I have the service manual bookmarked already but thanks for taking the time.
Gotta lotta stuff to look into now thanks to the three of ya.
A computer really is going to hit accuracy levels that a person couldn't reach. It makes sense they took the driver outta the equation.
Vaguely remembered Scotty talking about how a corvette shifts lighting fast with the computers making it impossible for a human to replicate manually on their own. Gotta rewatch that one. All this means I'm not getting sleep tonight lol
I'm torn between admiring the old days where cars were so user friendly and workable vs instances like these where they're created purely reliant on the computers instead. I guess that's the beauty and pain of technology advancing.
Still it's incredible tech jumped from distributors to what the three of you are explaining to me.
yes it's nice tech when it works. When it doesn't you need either a degree to repair/diagnose it, or you have to shotgun parts at it.
How new? Are we talking older than 1990? A lot seems to fall on that year, just guessing cause I don't know.
It depended on the engine, but in 1990, almost Fords still had distributors, with some new cars transitioning to coil packs and wires. For example, my old 1999 Ford Ranger had two coil packs and associated wiring to distribute spark between 6 cylinders. It was a sort of hybrid between modern coil-on-plug design and a traditional distributor-based design. My Ranger had the 3.0L Vulcan V6, and that engine never came with coil-on-plug technology. By the time the technology came out, those engines were already obsolete.
The 4.0L V6 SOHC (the "bigger" engine option in the Ranger) had its debut with coil-on-plug tech in 2001. From that engine's release in 1997 to 2000, though, the 4.0L had a distributor-based ignition system.
The 4.6L V8 had coil-on-plug design in 2002. The Modular V8 had its debut with coil-on-plug technology in 1999 with the release of the New Edge Mustang.
Hope that helps.
@justin-shepherd Thank you that's what I wanted the most. Everyone has great answers just can't answer right now like I want to. You're absolutely Mustang obsessed too, huh? Thanks for all the jumping off points to look into.
My stepdad and I are huge Mustang fans. I didn't recall hearing anything about coil-on-plug technology becoming popular until probably the mid-2000s (I was in my teens at the time, and was pretty unfamiliar with cars, but they interested me greatly). Usually, premium cars (the likes of BMW, Audi, etc.) launch with more advanced technology before they become a more everyday thing. Ford prided itself with the Mustang GT at that time, so it was the first to launch with the technology. I tend to start knowing the ins and outs of every vehicle I own as I own them. A good friend of mine is also into cars.
How do you fellas do that thing where you make the little gray box appear with what I said?
I highlight the text that I want to quote with my pointer. A little red box with quotation marks appears next to it. I click that and it automatically inserts the quote into my reply. I don't know if this works on mobile devices.
I was hoping it was that simple but didn't think it was.
It never is with cars. Different engines have different teams working on them, different technology levels depending on the vehicles they go into (for example GM has so-called "high feature" engines). It also depends when the engine developed. There's only so much adaptation you can do before you have to scrap the whole design and start from scratch.
I tend to start knowing the ins and outs of every vehicle I own as I own them
Oh wow this might let me gray box it on mobile after all. Either way that line hit my soul because that's exactly as I am too.
I wish I was as car obsessed as I am now when I got my first car, my Mustang. She'd probably be so decked out she'd travel by astral projection. Still that car lived through so many years of insanity until I started actually getting into working on her. I'm so glad she survived.
Always adored cars since I was a kid. But it's like a switch flipped and suddenly I need to know everything and do it all myself. Really wanna kick my 6 year old self for all that time wasted on wooden blocks instead lol.
But really though, my dad was a Mustang man from the start. I only wish he'd never let em go. I'm fighting to keep mine forever until she's considered classic. There's a "last of the muscle cars" meme I wish I could share but wonder if I could even track it down. It speculated that EVs would take over and it was the last Mustang or Camaro whichever muscle car it was, high tailing it down a desolate highway. I get really attached to my cars, they become family lol
Appreciate the rest of what you said, it's gonna help with what I'm working on.