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Hybrid or not?

  

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Topic starter

Scotty:

Big fan of your channel. I'm in the market for a new car. I'm considering a Toyata Rav4 or possibly Venza, Honda CR-V, and maybe VW Tiguan. I know you prefer automatic transmissions vs. CVT's. And you also prefer a naturally aspirated engine vs. turbo, due to the propensity of the turbo to be more subject to breakdown. I'm vacillating between whether to get a hybrid or not (definitely NOT ready to jump on the EV bandwagon). If you were me, would you opt for a hybrid (I'm retired and will be doing mainly round the town driving)? Or would you stick with a conventional non-hybrid model. Thanks for the great content. Wish I lived in your neck of the woods.

Phil

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6 Answers
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If you plan to keep the vehicle for as long as possible like Scotty and myself, I would go with a conventional gas vehicle (no hybrid).

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Posted by: @bigfiilo

If you were me, would you opt for a hybrid (I'm retired and will be doing mainly round the town driving)?

If you have the funds to drive a brand new vehicle, you might look into getting a good hybrid. Toyota and Honda have the best hybrids. Toyota has the Prius, which has been produced for 23 years, and they basically have all of the kinks worked out, down to a science. Camry hybrids, etc. are also good. You can get upwards of 50 MPG driving a hybrid. The only real drawback is there are regenerative brakes and such that go along with it. I don't really know how they work. You won't be able to drive them nearly as far, but but still further than any Ford product, etc. 

This post was modified 6 months ago by Justin Shepherd
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Welcome first timer,

Like @justin-shepherd says, Toyota hybrid systems are pretty reliable, and I would definitely take that over a full-on EV.  But OTOH, compared to a regular ICE car, a hybrid will be heavier, more complex, more expensive to maintain, and much less DIY-able.  And at some point, it's gonna need a new (expensive) battery, which could complicate your retirement budget.

So it kinda depends on what you like.  Personally, I think the new Venza (only comes hybrid) is a very appealing mid-size crossover, and would be a very good all-arounder and road-trip car. The RAV4 is not nearly as refined, though is super reliable.  CRV is also a great option.  I'd stay away from the vee-dub.

So maybe if you want to do your own maintenance and repair, get the RAV4 or CRV.  If not, try 'em all and see which one you like best (and who gives you the nest deal).

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Between these four: Toyata Rav4, Venza, Honda CR-V, and VW Tiguan, I'd consider the RAV4/Venza and CR-V. 

If you are in the United States, the Venza is Hybrid only. 

The RAV4 Hybrid and Venza are basically the same car underneath, both based on the Toyota Camry platform.

To Hybrid or Not To Hybrid

 

I personally like (some) hybrids. At the same time, I don’t think a hybrid is for everyone. It may fit your needs, it may not. 

 

I have a 2004 Toyota Prius, that has 299,999+ miles. It’s been an amazing vehicle.  The battery did need to be changed at 275,000 miles.

 

Hybrids in general are a more complex system.  There is an Internal Combustion Engine (ICE).  There is an Electric Motor.  There is an eCVT which figures out the power it is is getting from the ICE and/or Electric Motor to transfer to the wheels.  There is the cooling systems, systems with an s, one for the ICE, one for the Electric Motor. And of course, there is the biggest concern, the hybrid battery (traction battery).

 

At the same time, with all the complexity, the vehicle is somewhat simplified.  There is no stand alone starter. There is no stand alone alternator. The Electric Motor acts as both starter and the alternator. On top of all that, when the ICE is on, the energy generated never* gets wasted like when a traditional ICE car is sitting in idle. And on top of all that, the electric motor / eCVT help slow down the car when it regenerates electricity, also saving wear and tear on the actual brakes.

 

Drivetrain technology aside, the question returns to how much will one be spending on repairs and maintenance on the life of the vehicle, as compared to the ICE. 

 

Here is a spreadsheet that attempts to give a good idea of the break even mileage.  How many miles would one need to drive the car, given the price of the vehicles, the price of gas? (We can even add an expected maintenance cost as well).  

 

Strangely enough, this spreadsheet is for the RAV4, but the logic works for ICE vs Hybrid.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-bVho8e_wwS-9oU_et-SPaqGYyqXH0ZTX7-euJiKRCk/edit?usp=sharing

 

One tab just takes the averages of highway and city MPG. The other tab, provides 5 different scenarios as a mental exercise.

 

My general recommendation just guestimating (I haven’t delved too deeply) at the spreadsheet data, generally speaking, to get the best bang for your buck, either with a hybrid or ICE RAV4.

 

Get the ICE car

If you plan on owning the car for less than 100,000 miles.

If you plan on driving nearly 100% on the freeway.

If you only drive your car around 5,000 miles per year. (Hybrids don’t like to sit around, they need to be exercised.)

 

Get the Hybrid 

If you plan on owning the car for more than 100,000 miles.

If you plan on driving 100% city, 75% city, 50% city, 25% city.

If you drive a ton per year, especially stop and go traffic.

 

Get either:

If you plan on owning it more than 200,000 miles. (While you will save on gas, it may equal out in terms of changing the battery. Most of the Prius stories I hear seems to be able to get at least ~225,000 out of it.  Some less mileage, most folks more.)

 

Now for the RAV4 Hybrid and Venza specifically, the fascinating thing I like about the RAV4 Hybrid versus the CRV Hybrid and the ICE RAV4 is this.  The rear wheels in the RAV4 Hybrid (America) AWD system are completely electric.  There is no drive shaft.  It run completely on electricity.  In many ways, this simplifies the setup, and gives the car more control over when to spin up the rear wheels as needed.

 

The CRV Hybrid has a drive shaft which connects the Electric motor from the front of the car.  While I do like Honda’s implementation of the hybrid system (which is practically drives like a full time EV), the AWD system gives me pause.  In my mind, it makes more sense to take away the driveshaft. 

 

And of course with ICE RAV4, you have to deal with transfer case and differential maintenance and all that good stuff.  

 

Ultimately, when it comes down to it, give them all a test drive and see if you like how it drives.  I personally drive one frequently, and I think Toyota did a wonderful job balancing a hybrid drivetrain with the performance one would expect from a light duty SUV.

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In regards to CVT. The CVT in a RAV4 Hybrid and a Venza hybrid isn't your typical CVT. They call it an eCVT: it's technically planetary gear set driven rather than chain driven like normal CVT. And that Toyota eCVT is probably one of the most resilient transmissions built.

 

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Lastly, If buying a car was based on the interior, I would buy the CR-V in a heartbeat. I love how everything is laid out, and how ergonomic it is. The RAV4 and Venza are a little bit confusing to me. The CR-V is more intuitive and elegant.

Nicely written @kaizen . Didn't know & hadn't heard about 'shaft-less' RAV4 Hybrid AWD.

Thanks!

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